The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

Statement by the Llywydd

Welcome to this Plenary session. Before we begin, I want to set out a few points. This meeting will be held in hybrid format, with some Members in the Senedd Chamber and others joining by video-conference. All Members participating in proceedings of the Senedd, wherever they may be, will be treated equally. A Plenary meeting held using video-conference, in accordance with the Standing Orders of the Welsh Parliament, constitutes Senedd proceedings for the purposes of the Government of Wales Act 2006. Some of the provisions of Standing Order 34 will apply for today's Plenary meeting, and these are set out on your agenda.
Before we begin, if I could inform Members that the next ballot for Member Bills will be held on 13 July, and information on the process will be circulated to Members shortly.

1. Questions to the First Minister

The first item is questions to the First Minister, and the first question is from Jenny Rathbone.

Insulating Houses

Jenny Rathbone AC: 1. What plans does the Welsh Government have to insulate the most energy inefficient housing? OQ58189

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, improving energy efficiency of homes in the social rented sector is progressing through the Welsh Government's £220 million optimised retrofit programme and the Welsh quality housing standards. Plans to assist those in privately owned and privately rented sectors, through the Warm Homes programme, will be announced in the autumn.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you for that information. As the constituency with the highest number of private sector renters, I know that they are really shivering in all winters, and with bills expected to rise to nearly £3,000 a year per household—something that we have no control over—I wondered why it is not possible to have an emergency programme to protect the most vulnerable households living in fuel poverty.What exactly are the barriers to instituting an immediate insulation programme, targeting the most vulnerable households living in the worst insulated homes, which tend to be in the private sector?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, there are a series of measures the Welsh Government is taking to assist households with the escalating price of energy. But there are a series of barriers, I'm afraid, to instituting an emergency programme of household insulation. To begin with, we simply don't have the capital available to the Welsh Government to mount such a programme. Astonishingly, Llywydd, the capital available to the Welsh Government will reduce over the period of this Senedd. We will have less capital to invest in infrastructure of all sorts later in the Senedd term than we do now. And when the Chancellor announced his measures in May, I know the Member will recall that there was incredulity on the part of the industry that he did not announce a single penny of additional investment in energy efficiency and insulation measures. It was, the Financial Times said, just a footnote to his announcement, despite the fact that the director general of the Confederation of British Industry had called the day before for an all-out national effort on energy efficiency.
So, we simply lack the means to be able to mount an emergency programme. There are difficulties in implementing such a programme. Unfortunately, those properties that most need to be insulated don't deliver themselves in neatly organised bundles. They exist across the different sectors, clustered though, as the Member said, in the private rented sector. They exist across all geographies, and every home is different. Every home has a history of its own, a set of measures that have already been taken, and every home has to be individually assessed to make sure that the plan for it responds to those measures that have been taken in the past.
And then, thirdly, the third barrier to that sort of emergency programme is the skills deficit in the workforce. Successive UK Government schemes in this field have failed. David Cameron announced the Green Deal, aimed to insulate 14 million houses by 2020. That 14 million house scheme resulted in 14,000 loans being offered—14 million houses to be insulated; 14,000 loans altogether. The result is, Llywydd, that the supply chain, both in materials but also in skills, simply hasn't developed across the United Kingdom to the point where the very sensible suggestion put forward by the Member for Cardiff Central could be easily mounted by the Welsh Government.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Between now and 2028, Wales will need to recruit, on average, an additional 2,000 full-time equivalent workers to carry out the highly technical challenge of decarbonising homes in Wales. Now, during a recent Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee meeting, Mark Bodger, from the Construction Industry Training Board, highlighted that there has always been an appetite for people to retrain and reskill in sectors that can improve and broaden their trade. He also identified a major untapped market—shockingly, only around 3 per cent of these workers are female. So, with the Welsh Government—yes, your Welsh Government, First Minister—failing to publish the net-zero skills action plan, and we're not set to see one until the winter of 2022, which is of course much too late because the cold, harsh weather will have kicked in by then, will you as the First Minister clarify why there has been such a delay to a plan being developed, and what steps are you taking to encourage women to take up decarbonisation roles? Diolch.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I very much agree with the final point the Member made. The construction industry, unfortunately, continues to attract people from only part of Welsh society. And for women looking to work in it, too often it does not look like the sort of place that you would feel comfortable in working. Now, I do know that, through our colleges, real efforts are being made to attract young women into those occupations and to make them feel welcome, and for them to feel that the necessary adjustments are not adjustments that they need to make but adjustments that need to be made in the workplace so that those people feel that they would be welcome and that they would be able to make the contribution, which, I agree, is there to be made. Our new skills plan in this area has always been scheduled to be published by the end of this calendar year, and we remain on track, Llywydd, to do exactly that.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: I thank Jenny Rathbone for the question. We've heard Governments many times talking about encouraging owners to retrofit or to use renewable means of producing energy, such as solar panels on their homes. But, for many of my constituents in Dwyfor Meirionnydd, neither of those options is realistic, because they live in buildings that are listed. Think of the wonderful architecture of Dolgellau or Maentwrog, for example. The owners of these homes come to me regularly, expressing frustration that they can do nothing to save on their energy costs and ensure that their properties reach the necessary environmental requirements. They can't have double glazing or solar panels. So, what will you do to help these people?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I understand exactly the point the Member is making about the nature of construction of houses in parts of Wales; it's not confined to the part of Wales that the Member represents. And we have local authorities who have put forward plans to us that allow us to help them to invest in novel and innovative technologies, that, even where the basic construction of a home doesn't lend itself to normal forms of insulation, there are still things that can be done. It is not easy—I do not for a moment suggest that, in the types of houses to which Mabon ap Gwynfor has referred, there are easy solutions in this matter. But we continue to work with the industry and with local authorities, where they are able to come forward with innovative proposals, to try to find solutions for people whose homes, by the nature of their construction, mean that conventional means of insulation simply won't work for them.

Food Poverty in Blaenau Gwent

Alun Davies AC: 2. What action is the Welsh Government taking to tackle food poverty in Blaenau Gwent? OQ58183

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I thank Alun Davies for that question. Sustained investment in community food projects, including foodbanks, together with schemes to alleviate holiday hunger, are amongst the actions being taken in Blaenau Gwent. As an area with high levels of in-work poverty, it will be at the forefront of our commitment to free school meals for all primary-aged pupils.

Alun Davies AC: I'm grateful to the First Minister for that response. I think people across Blaenau Gwent and elsewhere are very grateful that they've got a Welsh Government that stands up for them. I'm aware that it was a visit to Blaenau Gwent that prompted the First Minister's thinking on issues around fuel poverty as well. But we are also aware that the Tory-created cost-of-living crisis is having a real impact—[Interruption.] Well, the Tories laugh about it, but they always laugh at poverty—

Mark Drakeford AC: We see them smirk.

Alun Davies AC: —and they always laugh when people are suffering.

Mark Drakeford AC: We see them smirking.

Alun Davies AC: And that is why—and that is why—they're sitting where they're sitting, and they will continue to sit where they're sitting. It is important—it is important, it is important—First Minister, that the people of Blaenau Gwent have a Government that stands with them and by their side. Can you outline to us this afternoon how the Welsh Government will continue to support people who are being affected by this cost-of-living crisis?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, I thank Alun Davies for that question, Llywydd. It was a pleasure to visit with him, back in April, the Star Centre at the old Sirhowyinfants school in Tredegarand to see the fantastic work that was being done as a distribution centre for food in the pandemic generally and now to focus upon those whose needs are the greatest. But the Member is right, Llywydd, that it was a visit to Ebbw Vale by my colleague Jane Hutt, back on 13 May, that has led, within four weeks, to the Welsh Government being able to fund and organise a national fuel bank scheme, and I congratulate those people in Ebbw Vale who have been pioneers in this. And, as a result of their work, we'll now be in a position to provide that help right across our nation. That extra help will be targeted towards people with prepayment meters and households not connected to mains gas.
Standing charges, Llywydd, I think are one of the scandals of the energy industry, and particularly so for people on prepayment meters. When you run out of credit and you're unable to heat your home, that standing charge continues to rack up day after day. So, when you are able to find money to top up the meter again, you find that a significant part of what you've been able to draw together has already been spent. And we know that standing charges in north Wales are the highest in the whole of the United Kingdom, and are at the top end of that distribution in south Wales as well. That's why the scheme, unveiled by my colleague Jane Hutt, with nearly £4 million-worth of investment, and now working with the Fuel Bank Foundation, will allow us to provide emergency help for people who are at the very sharpest end of the fuel crisis, and is a very practical demonstration of the point that Alun Davies made—that here in Wales there is a Government determined to go on looking all the time for those practical ways in which we can make a difference in those people's lives.

Natasha Asghar AS: First Minister, the pandemic crisis has pushed many families in Blaenau Gwent and elsewhere into hardship and exposes the severity of the UK's food poverty problem, a problem that I cannot deny has been exacerbated by current increases in the cost of living. Last month, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Rishi Sunak, announced a package of measures to help the most vulnerable people in Wales, including a one-off £650 payment to low-income households on universal credit, tax credits and legacy benefits, one-off payments of £300 to pensioner households, and £150 to individuals receiving disability benefits. This new cost-of-living support package will mean that the most vulnerable households in Wales will receive over £1,000 of extra support this year. So, First Minister, will you join me in welcoming these measures, which deliver significant targeted support to those on low incomes, pensioners and disabled people—groups who are most vulnerable to the rising prices in Blaenau Gwent and throughout Wales? Thank you.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I'm glad for any help that goes to those people who are in the most difficult sets of circumstances. But let's be clear with the Member that the money going to people who rely on universal credit just about makes up for the cut of over £1,000 that was put into those households in September of last year. They're no better off now than they were then. The Chancellor simply restored what he decided they didn't need back in September. And this package, which is too little and too late, also is very badly targeted. The Member talked about the most vulnerable households. Does she know that, in Wales, if you have a second home, you will receive the Chancellor's £400 contribution to your fuel bill this winter? Does she think that that is a sensible use of public money, that we're putting £400 in the hands of people who can afford two homes when the people who can barely afford one home haven't got enough to manage on?

Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders

Questions now from the party leaders. Leader of the Conservatives, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. With your permission, as it's the fortieth anniversary of the Falklands conflict, and today is the day that the cessation of hostilities was declared in the Falkland islands, I'd like to put my Conservative group's thanks to the servicemen and women who went out in 1982 and commemorate those who lost their lives—the 255 British men and women who lost their lives in that conflict, plus the three Falkland islanders themselves, but also the Argentinian soldiers who lost their lives as well. All war is a horrid function, but, ultimately, when the aggression of the dictatorship that was in Argentina that was perpetrated in 1982 was faced down, it had to be faced down by our military, who we time and time again call on to do that across the globe. I'd like to put on record our sincere thanks and gratitude, and our thanks also to the families that are left behind for the loved ones who will not return.
First Minister, it is also today the date that, five years ago, the Grenfell Tower happened in London, that terrible tragedy of the smouldering inferno that is glued into our images and the suffering that occurred at that time. The Minister was to have a statement today that has been withdrawn off the order paper. I'd be grateful if you could enlighten the Chamber today as to what actions the Government is taking to make sure that people in Wales who suffer from the cladding scandal are going to feel supported by the Welsh Government and supported so they can sleep at night?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the leader of the opposition for those questions, and of course share what he said in opening his questions this afternoon. This is the fortieth anniversary of the Falklands war. It is right that we use this opportunity to think both of those people who served directly in that conflict, but also the families of those people who never returned from the Falklands. I will be at Llandaff cathedral on Thursday, I've no doubt the leader of the opposition will be there too, and we'll see a bringing together of the military community in Wales, with others, in order to have a solemn moment of reflection. And I know that there are events in north Wales involving the armed forces as well. So, I entirely associate myself with his remarks in marking this occasion.
There was to be a statement today, Llywydd. It's five years since the Grenfell fire exactly. We took the decision not to make the statement, partly in order to respect that anniversary and to allow people's thoughts to be with those families who in that event too saw lives being lost and futures being scarred. The Minister will make a statement later in the month and that will update colleagues here in the Chamber on our repair programme. It will bring people up to date on the 248 expressions of interest we received earlier in the year and the 100 properties that have needed more intensive and intrusive survey work to be carried out, and on the investment that will now be made in those properties before the end of this financial year.
We will also, as we have said, bring forward our leasehold programme before the end of this month, and that will set out details of ways in which leaseholders who have been badly affected by the worth of their properties on the open market as a result of anxieties about the standards to which those buildings were completed—how we will help them as well. But, alongside that immediate repair work, we also have a reform programme, and that reform programme is fundamentally important, because what we cannot have is a system that in future just sees the difficulties caused in the past replicated. We will introduce a series of changes to the regulatory regime here in Wales to make sure that those who bear the responsibility for the problems that have been established, and that does not include those people who live in those properties—that those people who bear that responsibility will live up to those responsibilities in the future.

Andrew RT Davies AC: First Minister, I'm pleased in some respects to hear the reasoning, because I think some of us were a little sceptical that little progress had been made on this very important agenda item, and I hear the reasoning that you're saying is out of due respect to the victims of the Grenfell fire that obviously was five years today. I would hope that, at the earliest opportunity, therefore, the Government will bring this statement forward, so that those who are tied up in this horrible, horrible vortex that they find themselves in, where they feel helpless, and yet bills are landing on their doormats and leasehold demands, and yet they go to bed at night, living in what could potentially be a fire keg, because the cladding on their properties has not been replaced, and is still in existence here in Wales, and across many parts of Wales, in fact—. The Minister announced £375 million at the end of March. Are you in a position to confirm how much of that money has been allocated already, and where has it been allocated to? And if it hasn't been allocated, what is the timeline to issue that money out to people who can benefit from it? Because I recognise it is a significant investment, £375 million, but it's no good sitting in Welsh Government coffers; it needs to be delivered to home owners, so that they can put restitution measures in place.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, I absolutely agree with that final point: we want the money to leave the Welsh Government and to be doing the good that it's intended to do as fast as possible; it's for spending over three years. Can I make just one specific point to the leader of the opposition? This money is not just for cladding, and this is a big difference between the approach we are taking in Wales and the approach being taken elsewhere. Cladding is only one of the building defects that causes a risk of fire in those blocks. Compartmentalisation is another feature of the way in which buildings were not built according to the standards that would've kept people safe, and there were other aspects as well. So, our approach will offer a more comprehensive set of measures. That's why we have to have the surveys. I know it's frustrating; I imagine it must be hugely frustrating for people who are living in those conditions. The message we have to give to them is that by doing it properly, they will end up in a better position for the long run. That's why the surveys are important, that's why the detailed work is necessary. It will draw together not just the work to be done on cladding, but those other remedial actions that need to be taken. And then we need to see—and I know the leader of the opposition will agree with this—then we need to see those companies that were responsible for the work that was not carried out in the first place come to the table and to make their contribution. I pay tribute to those companies that have done so already, and there are companies in Wales who are playing their part; there are others who are not yet willing even to have a discussion, and the Minister wrote very recently to them again, calling them round the table, so that, alongside the money that the public will now provide, those companies that have profited from the sale and the construction of those properties make their contribution as well.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you for that answer, First Minister, but I didn't hear how much of that money had been allocated to date, which I think is important to give people confidence that the money is leaving the Welsh Government, albeit it might be to specific projects. And I fully understand that it does go to more than just cladding, but for many people, the cladding is the issue that they can quite clearly focus on, but compartmentalisation and other factors in the properties to be put right is another important aspect of this funding. But if you could, in your reply to me, highlight how much of this money has left Welsh Government coffers, I think that would give people confidence.
When you talk about developers being brought to the table, that is really important. And other parts of the United Kingdom have developed the strategy—the UK Government, for example, has brought those developers to the table, and significant sums of money have been earmarked to rectify the defects. I have an FOI here that indicates that, through the entire part of 2021, the Minister only met on three occasions with the developers, and those meetings were 45 minutes, 45 minutes and 60 minutes in total. Now, I have had engagement with the Minister, and I know how focused she is on this particular issue—indeed, from a constituency point of view, she does have issues in her own constituency—so I fully understand the direction that she's giving here. But when you see an FOI such as this, which indicates only three meetings taking place of such limited duration, and listing the developers that have engaged with the process, can you confirm to me, First Minister, that Welsh Government is making progress on holding these developers to account, making sure that they contribute to those restoration costs here in Wales,and that there is a stepping up of the intensity that the Welsh Government is using to make sure that those developers are held to account to put money into the system so that residents aren't waking up to a fire alarm, they're waking up to a bedside alarm instead?

Mark Drakeford AC: Three points in reply to those questions, Llywydd.I don't have the figure in front of me and I don't just want to guess it from memory. Money is being spent from the £375 million, and I'll make sure that the Member has the accurate figure of what has been spent so far on the survey work and is due to be spent on the remedial and repair work during the rest of this calendar year.
On the meetings, I think the Minister has met regularly with the industry and that is in addition to all the meetings that take place at official level. I can assure the Member, as I'm sure he knows, that a 60-minute meeting with the Minister will have left those companies in no doubt at all about what was expected of them.
In relation to what more can be done with the companies, let me say we were disappointed that in the Bill that went through the House of Commons, the UK Government at the very last minute put in new provisions to raise a levy on those companies and didn't include either Scotland or Wales within those arrangements, despite the fact that, separately, both Scotland and Wales wrote to the UK Government asking to be included. On a more positive note, though, let me say that there was a meeting yesterday under the new inter-governmental relations arrangements involving Michael Gove, the Minister here and the Minister in Scotland as well, which discussed all of that and has resulted in an agreement that further work will be done to see whether it will be possible for us to be included within the scheme that we had hoped to be part of. So, I'm hoping that that work will now bear fruit and that that will give us the extra tool that is available now to Ministers in England, and that could have been made available in Scotland and in Wales. We don't have it at the moment; I hope the work that's been put in hand will result in us having that power and that that will allow us to do what the leader of the opposition has suggested and to accelerate our ability to draw those companies who have so far been reluctant to live up to their responsibilities back around that table.

Plaid Cymru leader, Adam Price.

Adam Price AC: Thank you, Llywydd. Gross domestic product is down in the UK for the second month running, an initial drop of 0.1 per cent in March followed by an unexpected slump of 0.3 per cent in April. Some would point to COVID and the war in Ukraine as the overriding reasons, but that doesn't explain why the UK is doing so much worse than other countries. According to the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development the UK will next year stagnate and be the worst-performing economy among the group of seven leading industrialised nations by a significant margin. The Centre for European Reform last week said that Britain was £31 billion worse off than it would have been without the dual impact of Brexit and COVID, but that the bigger impact by far was the effect from Brexit. Isn't it the case that far from the promised sunlit uplands, Brexit is beginning to cast a long shadow on our economy at a time when we can least afford it?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, Adam Price is right, of course. Those were very concerning figures published yesterday, and for the first time since the pandemic began we've had two consecutive months in which GDP has fallen, and, for the first time, we see those falls across all three major sectors of the economy: the service sector shrunk, industrial production shrunk, manufacturing shrunk. These are not solely to be explained by the short-term shocks of the war in Ukraine and by COVID, the leader of Plaid Cymru is absolutely right. It is a recognised impact by the Bank of England and by the Office for Budget Responsibility. The UK economy is 4 per cent smaller than it would have been had we not decided to leave the European Union and will be perpetually. There is a very high price being paid by the UK economy for that decision, but it's not an impact that anybody should be surprised at, because this was pointed out well in advance, and we were told to disregard the views of experts. Well, I'm afraid that expertise is turning out to have been right all along.

Adam Price AC: Indeed. The First Minister is absolutely correct. Of course, even the Government's own advisory body, the Office for Budget Responsibility, made this very forecast, which has been borne out by the evidence presented. The latest regional gross domestic product figures show London and Northern Ireland are the only parts of the UK that have grown beyond pre-pandemic levels. As the economist Jonathan Portes has been quoted as saying:
'There is some emerging evidence that London’s economic dominance, and hence regional and geographical inequality, has, if anything, been further exacerbated by Brexit.'
So, not levelling up, but levelling down. And the one outrider outside of London, Northern Ireland, is, of course, within the single market. So, First Minister, do you think that's why they have performed better over the last two years compared to Wales and, indeed, every other part of the UK outside of London?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I don't think there's any doubt at all—how could there be—that the availability of being within the single market is having that additional positive impact on the economy in Northern Ireland. Here in this Chamber, many of us advocated a form of Brexit recognising and respecting the result of the referendum but wanting a different form of Brexit, a Brexit that would not have been so damaging to people here in Wales, and continued membership of the single market, proposed, of course, by Mrs May, and a form of continuation in the customs union, would have allowed us to have left—[Interruption.]—would have allowed us to have left the political arrangements of the European Union—we would not have been members of it—but we would have continued to have been part of the trading arrangements with our nearest and most important neighbours, and that would undoubtedly have supported the Welsh economy in the way that the same arrangements can be seen to be supporting the economy in Northern Ireland.

Adam Price AC: Westminster, of course, is now risking a trade war over the Northern Ireland protocol, which will not just plunge Northern Ireland into political uncertainty but also add further to the economic pain families are already experiencing throughout the United Kingdom. Now, given that cost-of-living crisis and the challenges we're facing in every sector of the economy, as the First Minister said, in every part of the UK bar London, isn't there a very simple practical solution, which you've just alluded to, which is returning to the principle at the heart of 'Securing Wales' Future', the White Paper we jointly published between us, which is rejoining now the single market and the customs union, as even some Tory MPs have been arguing in the last couple of days? Indeed, even the former Member of the European Parliament, Baron Daniel Hannan,Baron Brexit, has been arguing we should never have left the single market now. Will you make that—? Is that still the policy of the Welsh Government, and will you make that case for single market membership, not just to Boris Johnson, but also, I should add, to the leader of the opposition, who's been a little bit vague on this question to date?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I continue to believe that, if Wales and the United Kingdom were inside the single market, all those barriers to trade that we see doing such harm to the Welsh manufacturing industry and to Welsh agriculture, those will be removed. It's an inescapable fact that our nearest and biggest trading partners are still in the European Union. Now, trade with them—. Uniquely, as you will remember, nobody was able to find a single example of a treaty agreed that put more barriers in the way of trade rather than trying to remove them. All of this, Llywydd, is now under even greater strain because of the publication yesterday of the Northern Ireland Protocol Bill, a Bill that 52 of the 90 seats in the Northern Ireland Assembly—parties representing 52 of those 90 seats—described today as something they rejected in the strongest possible terms. This is what they said to the Prime Minister:
'We reject in the strongest possible terms your Government’s reckless new protocol legislation, which flies in the face of the expressed wishes of not just most businesses, but most people in Northern Ireland.'
And yet, despite all of that, the Prime Minister's solution to the problem that he himself created—this is his protocol that he agreed, that he described to us in such glowing terms—. He is now prepared to tear that up. The UK Government admits, it says so itself, that it breaches international obligations. It damages our standing in the rest of the world. The good news for this Senedd is that, in the letter received yesterday to my colleague Vaughan Gething from the Foreign Secretary, the UK Government say that the provisions in the Bill are such that a legislative consent motion will be required from the Senedd. And having told us nothing about the Bill, and giving us no advance sight of the Bill at all, the letter has the nerve to go on asking that the Minister should reply confirming that we are content to support a legislative consent motion in front of this Senedd. Well, such a legislative consent motion will be brought forward and it will give Members here an opportunity to look in greater detail at the case for this breach of international law and the impact that it will have here in Wales as a direct result of the barriers to trade that the Prime Minister's deal has imposed upon us.

Cost-of-living Crisis

Ken Skates AC: 3. What support is the Welsh Government providing to people in Clwyd South in light of the current cost-of-living crisis? OQ58196

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, over 12,000 households have benefited from the £200 winter fuel support payments in the local authorities covered by the Member's constituency. In April alone, over 2,200 payments were made from the discretionary assistance fund in those same local authorities and, of those payments, more than 90 per cent were cash help for emergency food and fuel.

Ken Skates AC: Well, thank you, First Minister, that is enormous help for my constituents, but would you agree that the Chancellor's offer to households facing the cost-of-living crisis is simply not enough and, indeed, insulting, given it's to be paid from the cut to universal credit last year? So much more could have been offered to hard-pressed households had the Chancellor not lost £11 billion in failing to ensure against interest rate rises, or by losing £6 billion in fraudulent bounce-back loans. And why, First Minister, do you think that UK Government Ministers just can't bring themselves to call this 'a crisis'?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, Ken Skates makes a very important point in that contribution and, as a former Minister responsible for the economy here, I can see why he has wanted to highlight the fact that, while this Government struggles and fails to provide the sorts of help for people faced with a cost-of-living crisis, at the same time they are losing money hand over fist in some other schemes that they themselves have responsibility for.
The £11 billion to which Ken Skates referred was highlighted only last week. The Chancellor was warned, time after time, that rising interest rates would have an impact upon his ability to service the £900 billion of reserves created by quantitative easing. He failed to take out those insurance measures and, as a result, he is spending £11 billion more than he would have otherwise have needed to do. Now, imagine what the £11 billion could have done in the lives of the people we have been talking about this afternoon.
And when it comes to fraud from the bounce-back loan scheme, fraud is only a third of the loss that the UK Government itself say they now expect to make through that scheme. Five billion pounds lost directly in fraud, but £17 billion that the Government now does not expect to recover from those loans. Now, there are court cases, Llywydd, going through at the moment that show that those bounce-back loans, those fraudulent loans, were being used to pay for the purchase of private cars, for flying lessons, for pornography websites, and, in a case which is to be in front of the courts next month, a case where someone who obtained a bounce-back loan is alleged to have used it to fund terrorist activity by Islamic State terrorists in Syria. Five billion pounds, which, as we know, the National Audit Office says the Government has failed to take the necessary action to recover, and where the Government Minister, Lord Agnew, the anti-fraud Minister, resigned in January, describing his own Government's efforts to control that fraud as 'woeful'.
Now, the point that Ken Skates makes, Llywydd, is this, isn't it: we have a Government who say that, in the fifth richest country in the world it's not possible to provide enough money for people to stay warm and to be fed during this coming winter, but have managed to contrive the loss of tens of billions of pounds in just two schemes that I've highlighted this afternoon.

International Strategy for Wales

Heledd Fychan AS: 4. What progress has the Welsh Government made on implementing the International Strategy for Wales? OQ58192

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Heledd Fychan for the question. Llywydd, progress was set out in the annual report on our overseas network, which was published last month. The report recorded outcomes against the international strategy in terms of raising the international profile of Wales, supporting international trade and establishing Wales as a globally responsible nation.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, First Minister. Clearly, a number of things have changed since the strategy was drafted, including the pandemic and, more recently of course, the fact that the Wales men's football team have qualified for the World Cup. As Laura McAllister wrote in a column in the Western Mail over the weekend, and I quote:

Heledd Fychan AS: 'The potential benefits for football are vast, but so, too, is the potential to generate lasting spin-off success for Wales off the field too. It's all about that word "legacy’", but we need to get our act together and move fast if we are to strategically co-opt sport, supported by our wider cultural offer, as a way of amplifying Wales’ global profile and attract the world to Wales to trade, holiday, invest and study.'

Heledd Fychan AS: She goes on to say that it would be unforgivable if Wales were to miss out on this golden opportunity. I know that Adam Price questioned you on this last week, but, with over a week having passed since that crucial fixture, what support has already been provided by the Welsh Government to the FAW, and what support will be provided over the next few months?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Heledd Fychan. The point that she raises is an important one, and I agree with what she said when she quoted what was in theWestern Mail. We've been doing things already, of course, with the FAW to prepare for Wales's visit to Qatar. I had an opportunity to meet with the ambassador from Qatar, who came to Wales last week, and I am meeting with the UK ambassador to Qatar next week here in Cardiff. So, we are preparing for people from Wales going to Qatar and ensuring that everything is in place and ensuring, with the local authorities, that there will be a welcome for any person that goes to Qatar, and working with the FAW and others to use the possibilities that will arise for Wales from being on the global stage. We are drawing people together as a Government, not just in the footballing world, of course, but, as Heledd Fychan said, more broadly, in order to exploit the opportunities that we have now through the success of the team.

Darren Millar AC: First Minister, football, and sport in general, of course, is a huge opportunity for Wales to make itself known on the international stage, but one opportunity that your international strategy really has missed is the opportunity that exists between faith communities in Wales because of their links with faith communities overseas. There are many churches, chapels and mosques across this country that enjoy excellent links in nations overseas and could easily afford an opportunity for Wales to raise its profile in those nations. Why is it that 'faith' does not appear as a word, apart from in terms of the title of the BBC programme Keeping Faith, that tremendous series—? Apart from that, the word 'faith' does not appear in the international strategy at all. Is that something that you will look at in order that we can ensure that these opportunities are not missed?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I agree with what Darren Millar said, that we have many faith communities here in Wales who have important links with communities elsewhere in the world, and that brings with those connections opportunities to enrich people's understanding and to develop those connections between people that are to the benefit of us all. The international strategy, though, I think does have a different focus. It is essentially an economic focus, because most of the efforts of our overseas offices and most of the things that you will see in the international strategy are about making sure that there is strong support there for firms in other parts of the world who might be interested to come to Wales, and particularly for firms based in Wales to develop those export opportunities that they are looking for. It may be that there are connections that could be made between the agendas that are set out in the international strategy and the work of those wider communities. And, of course, we don't turn our back on those possibilities at all.

Men's Health Issues

Gareth Davies AS: 5. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to promote awareness of men's health issues? OQ58180

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, the Welsh Government supports the promotion of good physical and mental health for men through a range of existing public health strategies and programmes. These include, for example, our suicide prevention strategy and actions to promote early awareness of prostate cancer and heart disease.

Gareth Davies AS: I appreciate your response, First Minister. Thank you. This week is Men's Health Week, marked right up until Father's Day on Sunday. It is hoped that it will help spur men into thinking more about their health. And, really, we're particularly bad at looking after our own health, especially when it comes to mental health. First Minister, the theme of this International Men's Health Week is the DIY MOT. Resources are being provided online to help guide men to look after their health and to give their body and mind an MOT. Will you help spread awareness by undertaking a DIY MOT this week, and do you acknowledge the statistical element of men being less likely to talk about their physical and mental health problems? Thank you.

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for that question, and it is by itself an opportunity to do exactly what he said, and I thank him for making those additional points. It is indeed International Men's Health Week. It started yesterday and will run until Sunday of this week, and it's there, as Gareth Davies said, to heighten awareness of preventable health problems for men of all ages. And there is no doubt that there is a cultural issue here, where men in Wales are less likely to report early signs of symptoms, less likely to be willing to carry out the sort of simple self-checks to which the Member referred. And, as a result, too often we see people presenting too late for treatment that otherwise could have been effective for them. So, I entirely agree that anything that we can do to persuade people to do those simple things that can help them is an important step in making sure that men who have health needs can get the help they need in as timely a way as is possible.

Cost of the School Day in Islwyn

Rhianon Passmore AC: 6. How is the Welsh Government supporting parents of primary school pupils in Islwyn with the cost of the school day? OQ58190

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, in addition to free breakfasts, extra help through the pupil development grant access scheme and now free school dinners, parents in Islwyn will be supported through the National Music Service, helping with the costs of instruments and tuition. Those parents will know how much this is due to the sustained campaigning of their Senedd Member.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Thank you for that, First Minister. I am proud, however, that our Welsh Labour Government has rightly committed to delivering free school meals to all primary school children in Wales. A recent letter to the UK Government from teaching unions set out the benefits provided by free school meals, and it said:
'Every school day we see the benefits free school meals provide to those currently entitled. For many it is the only hot, nutritious meal they have in a day. A quality school meal helps improve children's concentration and behaviour during lessons. We witness, first-hand, the effect they can have on improving school attendance, on children's health, and academic performance.'
Locally, in my own constituency, Caerphilly's Labour council have been rightly praised for how they responded throughout the pandemic with their delivery of decent, healthy free school meals. But sadly, the cost-of-living crisis is putting more and more strain on families' budgets. While in Wales, our Labour Government is taking actions that will support families in places like Islwyn, the Tory UK Government, however, refuses to expand free school meal provision in England. So, First Minister, can you provide an update on the progress that is being made to deliver universal free school meals to primary-age children in Wales, and how else will the Welsh Government support parents in Islwyn with school costs through this cost-of-living crisis? Thank you.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I'm very pleased to provide an update on the £225 million that, as a result of the co-operation agreement, we will be investing in providing universal free school meals to primary-age students. The first of those schools will come on stream in September of this year, and then a lot of work is going on with other schools to make sure that the barriers to their participation—and they're often physical barriers: canteen kitchen facilities, and so on—that we are able to use the capital that we've also put aside for this programme to help to bring them on stream as well. When we're able to have universal free school meals in the Caerphilly local authority area, an additional 10,700 pupils will benefit from this development. And I'm very pleased indeed to be able to pay tribute to the work of the local authority in making that happen as quickly as we are able.
We will go on, though, as the Member for Islwyn has said, Llywydd, in doing other things that will help with the cost of the school day. The additional money that my colleague Jeremy Miles announced earlier in the year for the pupil development grant access fund this year, the fact that we will be providing free school meals during the summer holidays, and that we will go on expanding the services that we are providing in terms of early years education and childcare provision, all of which leaves money in the pockets of those families who otherwise would be having to fund those services for themselves. That strategy, which has been pursued by successive Governments here in the Senedd—the social wage, as it's known—means that collective provision reaches deepest into the lives of those people who need that help the most, and that is a strategy that we will continue to pursue through the rest of this Senedd term.

The Impact of the Rising Cost of Living

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: 7. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the impact of the rising cost of living on the people of Ogmore? OQ58193

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, our assessments show the crisis is having a significant effect on people across Wales, including Ogmore. Up to 45 per cent of households in Wales could already be in fuel poverty following the price increase in April. Ofgem reported that householders can expect typical dual fuel bills to rise to £2,800 in October of this year.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: I think the First Minister's response describes well the tsunami now that is affecting people right across Wales, from Ogmore north, south, east and west, and it really is happening, and it's not hidden away—we're actually seeing it now evidently every single day. But there are things we can do. Much of the measures, the well-targeted measures of Welsh Government, have been mentioned this afternoon, but also at a local level. Local authorities are playing a key role here, targeting the discretionary housing payments; the fuel payments administration; the business rates relief; co-ordinating the Big Bocs Bwyd scheme within Ogmore, which is going to be rolled out; support for community pantries; the freezing of council tax this year in Bridgend;and, as of last week, having paid out in Bridgend over 29,000 cost-of-living payments to those who pay direct debits in bands A, B, C and D, and they're moving on to others rapidly as well.
First Minister, can I ask you? This Saturday, in the face of this crisis, thousands of people are going to be descending on London as part of the Trades Union Congress campaign to force the Government to do more on sick pay, on wages, to raise universal credit, to tax energy profits to help people pay their bills, and banning the appalling practice of fire and rehire, and more. What message do you have for all those travelling from Wales to London this Saturday, who are demanding better from the UK Government for working people facing this Conservative cost-of-living crisis?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I thank Huw Irranca-Davies. Those were really important and pertinent points for us here in Wales. I was able to speak at a rally in Llandudno at the Wales TUC conference in May, which was designed entirely to highlight the march that will take place on Saturday of this week. The purposes of the march, as Huw Irranca-Davies has said, are both to highlight the challenges that are facing the lives of so many of our fellow citizens, but also to advance constructive ideas that this Government at Westminster should examine and should be prepared to put into practice to help those families too. My message to those many people who will go from Wales to London on Saturday is that their willingness to take part in such a demonstration is a sign of their commitment to doing things better in the lives of their fellow citizens, and I wish them all every success in the demonstration of their determination that a better set of solutions can be found and put into place in the lives of those who need them the most.

Support for the Offshore Energy Sector

Paul Davies AC: 8. What is the Welsh Government doing to support the offshore energy sector? OQ58160

Mark Drakeford AC: Thank you very much to Paul Davies, Llywydd. We support the sector through direct funding for research in nascent technologies and infrastructure investment. We work with the industry to provide a consenting regime that is supportive of the sector, while also meeting our environmental obligations. We co-operate with partners to secure the skills needed for the jobs of the future.

Paul Davies AC: I'm grateful to you for that response. In order to provide floating offshore wind energy, and for Wales to deliver the economic, social and environmental benefits available, we need marine planning reforms to deliver projects as soon as possible. Indeed, a simpler process for marine planning would mean that projects such as the Erebus project by Blue Gem Wind, which will be off the Pembrokeshire coast, could be delivered before far larger projects in other parts of the UK. I do understand that there is a commitment to reduce timetables for planning decisions to 12 months, which has been put in place in other parts of the UK. So, can you tell us what the Welsh Government is doing to ensure that timely planning consent is given for these projects in Wales, so that Wales doesn't lose out as compared to other parts of the UK?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Paul Davies for those additional questions. I had an opportunity to read his contribution after the statement made by Vaughan Gething back in May, and I do agree that it is important for us to have a planning system here in Wales that is supportive of the sector, but also respects the environmental obligations that we have, and that's difficult. I've had more than one meeting; I had a meeting with Lesley Griffiths and the sector, and with the third sector, which is part of this process here in Wales.
I want to see a future where companies can come to Wales and can have certainty about the system and where they can help us to find the important evidence when we're talking about new ways of creating marine energy. I want to see that, when we respect the environmental obligations, but I do agree with the Member that it's important for us here in Wales to be a place where companies can come and can know that we will have a system that is going to help them in the important work that they want to do about the things that are going to be so important for us in the future.

I thank the First Minister.

2. Business Statement and Announcement

The next item is the business statement and announcement, and I call on the Trefnydd to make that statement. Lesley Griffiths.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I have two changes to today's agenda: the Minister for Social Justice will shortly make a statement on the cost of living, and the statement on building safety has been withdrawn. Draft business for the next three weeks is set out on the business statement and announcement, which can be found amongst the meeting papers available to Members electronically.

Natasha Asghar AS: Minister, unfortunately, late last week, I had to go to A&E at the Grange hospital after taking advice from my doctor. Let me be clear that what I'm about to share with the Senedd is not at all a criticism of the staff, because every single person I spoke to, from the receptionist to the hardworking nurses, was absolutely fantastic, and I cannot fault them at all. Prior to my election last year, I had heard the news, like many people outside this Chamber, and read in the papers, and after being elected here, more and more residents of south-east Wales have come to me and spoken about their disenchantment with the Grange hospital. And I stand in front of you today to agree with all of them that the Grange hospital is, without a doubt, in shambles.
For background, I just want to make you aware that I filmed my entire experience whilst there—you can call it my own version of my Panorama exposé—and even posted it on social media yesterday. I did not tell anyone that I was going to the hospital, and I wore a mask the entire time so that no-one would recognise me, as I did not want to be treated differently to anyone else due to being a Member of the Senedd. It became very clear very quickly that the problems started before you even reached the hospital. Firstly, as someone who's foot was double the size, and in pain, I had to park a very, very long way away from the main building in an offshoot car park as there was nothing even close to the doors to park a car. Fortunately, I was able to hobble to the entrance, but how can any of us expect someone who's severely ill, disabled or elderly to walk all the way that I did? One woman I'd spoken to, who was there with severe chest pains, was forced to battle with public transport to get to the hospital because she was told there were no ambulances available.
Simply trying to find A&E is like trying to walk through a maze that even Harry Potter would find difficult, because there was just clearly no signposting from the entrance to the actual A&E section. I walked through the main entrance, then wandered around various corridors and departments, spoke to various members of staff before being guided to the right place. The highlight after walking through what I felt was the entire hospital was that I was sent outside again to take my temperature, only to walk back in again to be told with a slip that I could now go in and make my appointment. The friend who I was with, who walked by my side the entire time, did not have to take any of the tests.
This was my first time at the Grange hospital, and for anyone who's not been there before, when you arrive at A&E, you're greeted with a shockingly small waiting room, which is clearly not fit for a hospital covering an area such as south-east Wales. After being checked by a lovely receptionist, I was forced to sit on the doorstep because there just weren't enough chairs inside. I sat there watching an ever-growing number of ambulances waiting with patients inside and onboard for a very long time. Thankfully, I didn't have to wait a long time to be seen, but one gentleman had been waiting for 17 hours before finally giving up and going home with another elderly lady who was waiting there for five hours.
I have an elderly mother, Minister, a disabled mother, and like her, many people who are diabetic or weak naturally get hungry after waiting for so long for an appointment. What are the options if you want a bite to eat at the Grange hospital? Let me tell you. One of your options—

I think I have been very, very generous in allowing you to explain your situation.

Natasha Asghar AS: So, my question, Minister, after going through all of this, and my issues and concerns are—and they have been raised by numerous patients—that I'd like the Minister to make a statement in this Chamber, as soon as possible, about what the Welsh Government is going to do now to make the Grange hospital fit for purpose as a matter of urgency. Because with the footflow heading its way from the Royal Gwent and other hospitals in the area, I'm sincerely worried that we're heading towards a disaster. Thank you very much.

Lesley Griffiths AC: That was certainly a very long question to ask for a statement. I'm sorry to hear you had to attend the Grange hospital. Obviously, you set out many issues that will have raised concerns, particularly with the Minister for Health and Social Services, who will have heard your question. I think it's really important that people attend the correct health setting when they have a problem. I think that is something that many of us should reiterate whenever we get the opportunity to do so. I know that there is ongoing work to improve the spaces at the emergency department at the Grange and the majors area. Unfortunately, they've got to install cameras for safety reasons, but also, they're installing screens, and you'll be aware that there was a Healthcare Inspectorate Wales unannounced visit that made recommendations. I know all these things are being addressed by the health board.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Trefnydd, there are serious question marks about the future of peer mentoring services for people with drug, alcohol and mental health issues in Wales. Some in the sector believe that services could collapse over the summer as the new contract is yet to be put out to tender and may not be in place until October or November of this year. This means that peer mentoring services will not be able to accept new clients from the beginning of next month, and that mentors, many of whom will have had personal experience of addiction, and are therefore vulnerable themselves, will be out of work at the end of August.
Your Government's response to this matter has been to call on service providers to run the service without funding until it is eventually tendered out later this year. I've been told that this could well be illegal as it would mean that charities are subsidising the Welsh Government. Iraised the matter with the Deputy Minister—and I see the Deputy Minister is here as well—in correspondence at the end of last week, but the situation is so pressing, it needs dealing with urgently. Can we therefore have an urgent Government statement on this issue, with a view to providing a solution to the problem that does not imperil vulnerable clients, vulnerable staff, and risk the sustainability of charities that have worked so diligently and effectively over the length of the current contract?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. You've done absolutely the right thing writing to the Deputy Minister, who, as you say, is listening to your question, and I'm sure she will respond as soon as she's able to do so. I am aware there was an out-of-work peer mentoring service that was provided by ESF funding. Unfortunately, that funding will be coming to a close, and the Deputy Minister has announced, I think, about £8 million of funding, from memory, for extending that peer mentoring service. But I'm sure the Minister will address those points in her response to you.

Mike Hedges AC: First of all, I'm requesting a Welsh Government statement on this year's A-level, AS-level and GCSE examinations, and in particular, GCSE Welsh second language; French GCSE, which included a question on a topic that schools had been told had been removed; AS-level pure mathematics; A-level physics, which the teachers were told would be non-synoptic, but was synoptic; and AS-level chemistry, where the actual exam paper was very different to any previous practice papers or past papers. Can we have the statement as a matter of urgency rather than when the results come out?
Also, I'm requesting a statement on the provision of 3G and 4G sports pitches in Wales. The biggest problem we have is finding places for children to play throughout winter. It is no good for them being enthused by Aaron Ramsey, Joe Allen, Gareth Bale and others if there aren't enough quality pitches for them to use. Will the Welsh Government make a statement on how many new 3G and 4G full-sized football pitches they expect to be built during this term and the sport being provided?
Finally, I'm requesting either a written or oral statement on the result of the meeting of the steel council, which I believe took place this week.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. There were three issues that Mike Hedges raised, the first one around examinations that will be taking place this summer. Obviously, it has been quite a difficult time for our learners over the past two years. I think learners have really had to adapt and cope with new and often challenging arrangements as a result of that significant disruption we've had to both teaching and learning. I know that the Minister for Education and Welsh Language is aware of the concern around a number of exam papers. I'm not quite sure of all the subjects, but I'm sure Mike Hedges covered many of them. He meets regularly with the WJEC and Qualifications Wales, not only about concerns around the examinations you referred to, but to make sure that learners are fully supported throughout this examination series this year.
In relation to 3G and 4G pitches, the Welsh Government has committed, as I'm sure Mike is aware, £24 million of capital funding over the next three years for our sporting facilities. You're quite right in saying that, if we are going to unleash the benefits of sport for everyone, we need to ensure that we have those facilities for both sport and physical activity accessible to absolutely everyone. I know the Deputy Minister for culture and sport continues to work very closely with Sport Wales. She's had some very positive and constructive dialogue with some of our national partners also about delivering those facilities going forward. Sport Wales has recently established a strategic capital investments group, so that they do have a strategic plan for directing the funding and prioritising capital investmentin facilities.
In relation to your question around the steel council, I will certainly ask the Minister for Economy, who I assume undertook that, to provide a written statement.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Trefnydd, could I have a statement, please, from the Deputy Minister for transport regarding the shocking state of the rail service in Wales? It's not that long ago since I was stood here, Llywydd, after we'd had a horrendous journey down from north to south—it took quite a few hours. But only last Monday, coming down here, I had a terrible journey. I was told the reason was that the mark 5 train that was scheduled to operate on this journey on 6 June developed a serious fault with its brakes and was unable to be used for this service. Going back—I was unwell last week; I was taken ill, actually—it took me five and a quarter hours, door to door, and there wasn't a trolley on there. I asked, I begged for a bottle of water, because I'd been quite unwell. Again, that's not satisfactory on a four- or five-hour journey.
But more importantly, last Saturday morning, passengers in Wales saw further chaos on Transport for Wales trains. A train running from Holyhead to Cardiff had only two carriages and was already full by 11.10 a.m. at Bangor. It was all kicking off on Twitter, and I have to say I do believe I saw the Deputy Minister get involved. There were questions raised with TfW, and TfW came back and stated, and I quote:
'there are no upper limits on the number of customers permitted to travel on board a train, unlike other modes of transport, such as bus and aircraft.'
For me, now that the air link has stopped from Cardiff—I have to say I've never used it, but because the train service is getting so bad, it's something I would have contemplated—when is the rail service going to improve? And would the Deputy Minister, instead of tweeting, come in here and make a statement? Because, if any Members here have heard a statement from the Deputy Minister in months, then I must have missed something. I do believe it's time he came here and made a statement on the shocking state of our rail service in Wales. Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: It was certainly very disappointing to see the overcrowding on Transport for Wales services in north Wales over the weekend. I know the Deputy Minister has certainly told Transport for Wales to make every effort to focus resource to the busier services. Of course, there was an international football match on Saturday, so far more people I'm sure were travelling down from north Wales. I too saw people getting very frustrated on social media and I absolutely understand that frustration. It wasn't good enough, and, as I say, we do understand passengers' frustrations.
You'll be aware of the incident that happened at Craven Arms recently, where a Transport for Wales train hit a stolen mini digger that had been abandoned on the line, so that took some carriages out. So, unfortunately, they do have fewer trains. You mentioned why a train wasn't used last week, and, of course, if there is a serious fault, we would not want it to be used. You will be aware that we have got new trains coming in later this year. They are currently being tested. They're not ready at the moment, but they will be later this year. But, please be assured that the Deputy Minister is in regular discussions with Transport for Wales.

Joyce Watson AC: Minister, we're waiting to see what happens today with the scheduled flight of asylum seekers to Rwanda. But I would be grateful for a Welsh Government update on its discussion with the UK Government on this particular matter. The Counsel General provided a useful account last week, but it would be good to have an oral statement that Members might have an opportunity to speak to. It's an ugly policy. It's an insult to our country's reputation, as is the mess over the Northern Ireland protocol. It's stupid, it's expensive and it's ineffective. There may be as few as seven people on today's first flight. That is a massive waste of taxpayers' money, and it won't work. Even the Home Office says there's no evidence of a deterrent effect. It's a cynical attempt to distract from the Tories' cost-of-living failures and their own infighting. That's my opinion. Conservative Senedd Members here might disagree with that. So, I think it would be a good time to timetable a discussion to get the real feeling on this horrendous policy from all Members that want to participate in it in this Chamber.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I don't disagree with anything that Joyce Watson says. I think it's cruel, I think it's immoral, I think it's ineffective, I think it's expensive, and I know that the Minister made those views very clear in the letter jointly with the Scottish Government on 19 May. It's diametrically opposite to our nation of sanctuary approach that we have here in Wales, and we're very proud to be a nation of sanctuary.
I agree with you as well about the effect it will have. I think absolutely it will lead to more trafficking of people, rather than less. If you look at those who are going to be transported to Rwanda, they're going to be very vulnerable to criminal gangs who will be seeking to exploit the situation. It's not that long ago, I'm sure, that we had refugees from Rwanda as well. Suddenly, the UK Government believe that it's okay to transport refugees and asylum seekers there. I think it really will make it more challenging for people to seek safety from war and persecution going forward, and lead to longer delays—and they're already far too long—in the asylum system.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Two statements, please, Trefnydd. As the leader of the opposition reminded us earlier, our minds are turning towards Grenfell Tower today, five years or half a decade after that tragic incident. I heard the reasoning of the First Minister on why the statement was pulled, but the residents that I've spoken to were actually offended by the fact that it was pulled on this day, and they saw it as an insult. I heard the First Minister say that the statement will be done at the end of this month. I've tried to look online to find when, because there's a vigil on the Senedd steps today and it will be asked of us when, so can you tell us exactly what day the statement will be heard?
And following on from my friend Joyce Watson on Rwanda, I'd also echo her request for a debate. When we have famous left-wing activists such as the heir to the English throne, the archbishops of Canterbury and York and all the bishops of the House of Lords coming our against this cruel policy, and also Councillor Joel Williams, and a Conservative staffer, I think, also coming out in the Western Mail against this policy, surely they need to wake up? So, can we please have a debate on that, as Joyce Watson requested? Diolch yn fawr, Trefnydd.

Lesley Griffiths AC: So, just to add to what I said to Joyce Watson, I mentioned that the Minister had written to the UK Government. One of the things that was asked for was a four-nations meeting to discuss the Rwandan policy. I'm sure you won't be surprised to hear no response has been received to date. So, I will ask the Minister to follow up with that letter to see if it's possible, and then that, I think, would be the appropriate time for Members to be updated.
In relation to the building safety oral statement being withdrawn, I just want to reassure everyone no insult was intended at all. As the First Minister said, there was work that we had hoped would be done ahead of the oral statement today that hasn't, but as soon as that work has been done, the Minister will be making a statement. I'm unable to give you a date, but clearly it will be before the summer recess.

Altaf Hussain AS: Minister, last week, BBC Wales carried a story featuring a range of concerns from the Bevan Foundation about the roll-out of the Welsh Government's free-school-meals option for all primary schools, which is to be commenced in September. Many schools simply don't have the infrastructure to offer a meal to all pupils. There will be limitations on kitchens, seating and staffing capacity. Before the end of the summer term, we really do need an update from the education Minister setting out the key challenges, whether they have been overcome, and what steps he and local authorities are going to take to meet the expectation among parents that you have created. Thank you, Minister.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Well, I'm very proud the Welsh Government, along with Plaid Cymru as part of our co-operation agreement, are bringing forward free school meals. Clearly, there are issues to be addressed, and I think capacity within schools is one. There are other issues that are being worked through. It's very much a cross-Government piece of work. The Minister for Social Justice is involved, and I am from a food point of view, as well as the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language. So, that work is being done at pace ahead of the introduction of what I think is a fantastic policy in September.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.

Buffy Williams MS: We know that the pandemic has had a profound effect on our health service, with waiting times proving a real problem. I welcome the announcement made by the health Minister earlier this year ensuring that, by 2025, no-one will be waiting more than a year for treatment in more specialities, but we need to see more urgent action on cancer waiting times. A constituent contacted my office this month. They were told they had an urgent cancer referral following a visit to their GP, only to find out that urgent referrals are now 16 weeks or more. The worry and angst caused over these four months has an astronomically detrimental affect not only on the individuals, but their families and friends too. Will the Minister make a statement please on how the Welsh Government will reduce the number of weeks and months people are waiting for cancer referrals?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I absolutely accept what a worrying time it is for anyone who is referred with the possibility of having cancer and, as you say, the impact it has not just on them, but on the wider family and friends. You'll be aware that the Minister did launch the programme for transforming our NHS, as you referred to, earlier this year. The pandemic has, inevitably, had a significant impact on cancer care. We saw back in the early days of the pandemic people not going forward for investigation, some of our screening programmes were suspended and some people didn't want to attend their appointments, and therapies had to be altered to reduce their risk. The Minister has set out her expectations, and you'll be aware, again, I'm sure, that, prior to the pandemic, we'd invested heavily in radiotherapy equipment and we'd introduced the UK's first complete overhaul of cancer waiting times. So, the Minister has made it very clear to NHS staff, who are continuing to work incredibly hard to respond to the waiting times, what she expects from them, and how we've increased training places to support the NHS, going forward. And we know now that all health boards have initiated rapid diagnostic centres—one-stop shop clinics—for people with symptoms that they can attend as well.

And finally, Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Diolch yn fawr iawn, Dirprwy Lywydd. I welcome the statement made by the First Minister about an hour ago, saying that we should expect a statement on building safety before the end of the month—we need some clarity exactly when on that. It is disappointing that today's announcement was pulled. It's five years since the Grenfell tragedy. Seventy-two people tragically lost their lives and, of course, today our thoughts are with their loved ones. These people suffered and died because other selfish people cut corners and put their own greed before the well-being of others. This should never happen again. People continue to live with anxiety and fear today. There's more that both Governments can do, and we need to a sense of urgency in order to resolve this. Leaseholders today are already paying thousands of pounds extra for remediation works, on top of the service charges costs, which they shouldn't have to pay for. Often, this cost is transferred to the tenants. Ultimately, the responsibility lies with those selfish and devious developers and their companies. Those who refuse to take responsibility and pay for the works needed to correct these faults should be banned from any further developments here in Wales, and their directors should have their bank accounts frozen. Then they would realise how these innocent leaseholders and tenants feel. The fact that Michael Gove has gone ahead and secured an England-only developer pledge shows how little the UK Government cares for Wales as well. So, as part of the statement, will the Minister therefore provide us with an update on how the Government's discussion with the UK Government on this England-only approach is going, and can she give us the next steps that are planned to urgently resolve this issue?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Well, I certainly agree with what the Member said around the 72 people who sadly lost their lives, and our thoughts are with their families and, of course, the significant impact it will have had on their lives, but also with people who are having to live with issues around building safety, which you referred to. I don't think I've got anything further to add to what the First Minister said. As I said, the statement will be done before the summer recess. We only have four sitting weeks after this week, so I will ensure it's on the business statement and announcement as quickly as possible, so Members and, obviously, our constituents are aware of that. I don't think the Minister could do anything more quickly or more urgently than she's doing, but I will certainly ask her to take your concerns and the specific points you raise, particularly about her discussions with the UK Government, into consideration when she brings forward her statement.

I thank the Trefnydd.

3. Statement by the Minister for Social Justice: Cost-of-living Update

Item 3 this afternoon is a statement by the Minister for Social Justice—cost-of-living update. I call on the Minister, Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, for the opportunity to update Members today about the deepening cost-of-living crisis, which is being acutely felt by the most vulnerable, by disabled people and by lower income households. Over the last week, we've seen further evidence of just how quickly prices are rising. The cost of filling up an average-sized family car passed £100 for the first time, and, a week ago today, prices at the pump recorded their biggest one-day increase in 17 years. A great many households are struggling to make ends meet. Work by the National Institute of Economic and Social Research has found that some 48,000 Welsh households are already facing food and energy bills that are greater than their disposable incomes. Unfortunately, this crisis will get worse as we head towards winter, with another energy price cap rise in October, which could add a further £800 to energy bills.
Dirprwy Lywydd, our focus as a Government has always been to help people with everyday costs by introducing a wide range of programmes that put money back in their pockets. We provide thousands of free breakfasts for primary school pupils every year and, as a result of the co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru, we will be extending free school meals to all primary school children from September. We provide help with the costs of sending children to school. Our Healthy Start vouchers give families money off their shopping. We provide free swimming for the old and the young, and we support hundreds of thousands of people with council tax bills every year. We help people get the benefits that they are entitled to—we've run two successful 'Claim what's yours' campaigns and the most recent in March helped people to claim more than £2.1 million of additional income. Our single advice fund's benefit advice services were launched two years ago to help people navigate the benefit system. And our Warm Homes scheme has improved the home energy efficiency of more than 67,000 lower income households, and more than 160,000 people have received energy-efficiency advice since its launch in 2011. We are now developing the next iteration of the programme.
But this cost-of-living crisis is unprecedented. The Office for Budget Responsibility says that this year will see the biggest fall in living standards in the UK since records began. We will continue to do everything we can to help people in Wales through this crisis, with support targeted towards those who need it most. As the crisis has worsened, we have introduced two new packages of measures that are unique to Wales and are targeted at those who need our help the most. Just a few days ago, I announced £4 million to help people on prepayment meters and households not on mains gas—two groups that were left out of the Chancellor's most recent package of measures. We are funding the Fuel Bank Foundation to provide fuel vouchers to help people on prepayment meters who are facing real hardship. Around 120,000 people will be eligible. People on prepayment meters have been hit particularly hard by rises in standing charges in recent months; the increases have been highest in north Wales. Vouchers worth £30 in the summer and £49 in the winter will be available to all eligible households, and people will be able to claim up to three times in a six-month period. We are also launching a heat fund to help those households not on mains gas, many of whom are in rural Wales, and will have experienced rapidly rising costs for oil or liquid gas, and this will help an estimated 2,000 households across Wales. This is in addition to the support payments for off-grid households available through the discretionary assistance fund. More than 1,000 people have received grants worth almost £192,000 between October and April.
Last week, the Deputy Minister for Social Services announced an additional £4.5 million for the carers support fund over the next three years. Unpaid carers will be able to apply for up to £500 to pay for food, household items and electronic items. Dirprwy Lywydd, this support is on top of our other all-Wales schemes, such as the £200 winter fuel support payment and the £150 payment for everyone in council tax bands A to D, which continues to be paid into people's bank accounts today. Beyond these schemes, I have met with energy suppliers to discuss what help is available to households struggling with energy bills and debt. Many companies fund grants of up to £600 to households with long-term debt issues. The suppliers supported our calls for the UK Government to extend the Warm Home Discount Scheme and to introduce an energy social tariff for lower income households. I've also hosted a cost-of-living summit, chaired a food poverty round-table, and met with the Wales Race Forum to better understand the impact of the crisis in our communities. I'll be meeting the Disability Equality Forum later this month and will be holding a follow-up summit in July. All these events will help to shape our actions and build partnerships to strengthen our response over the coming months.
But, Dirprwy Lywydd, this is a cost-of-living crisis with its roots firmly in Downing Street and the actions of successive Conservative Governments. It is the UK Government, with its tax and benefit powers, that can and must make a real difference to this crisis. We need to see benefit payments urgently uprated to match rising inflation and a lower energy tariff for lower income households, and a reinstatement of funding for discretionary housing payments. Without such action, there is a real risk that a great many families will be faced with the terrible choice between heating and eating this winter. In a rich country like ours, that's a choice no-one should ever have to make.

The Conservative spokesperson, Mark Isherwood.

Mark Isherwood AC: Diolch. You say—. I'll begin with the end and get the controversial bit over with. You say the cost-of-living crisis has 'its roots firmly in Downing Street'. In fact, inflation to May, which are the last international figures I can find, point to inflation in Holland at 8.8 per cent, the US at 8.6 per cent, Germany at 7.9 per cent, and in the Baltic states as high as 20 per cent. Is Downing Street responsible for all of this, or is somehow the cost-of-living crisis—and I'm happy to use that word—in the UK unique to us and somehow unrelated to the global cost-of-living crisis impacting in desperate ways in so many parts of the world?
Further to your written statement last Friday announcing a Welsh Government fuel voucher scheme, aimed at providing crisis help to those households that have to pay in advance for their energy and are unable to do so, with top-up vouchers for customers on prepayment meters, sector representatives told me, as chair of the cross-party group on fuel poverty and energy efficiency, that although this was welcome news, further information was still needed. National Energy Action estimate the price cap increase from April will bring an additional 100,000 households in Wales into fuel poverty, taking the total to 280,000. Both your written statement and the press release refer to individuals and people in respect of the voucher scheme. So, how many households does the Welsh Government therefore anticipate this voucher scheme support will reach?
Your statement says the scheme will see the launch of a new crisis service for households that are off the gas grid and are unable to afford to buy gas bottles or fill their oil tank, log store or coal bunker. When will this be launched? You state that the funding will also provide Fuel Bank heat fund support to help 2,000 households—so you identified the number in this instance—living off the gas grid reliant on unregulated heating, oil and liquid gas for their domestic space and water heating, which will benefit some 4,800 individuals, depending on the number of people living in the household. Is it your intention that the Fuel Bank heat fund is to fully cover the cost of 500 litres of oil, where it is noted that similar support available via the discretionary assistance fund is currently limited to £250, meaning that many low-income, vulnerable households cannot always afford the minimum delivery? Overall, what, if any, are the proposed eligibility criteria for the scheme, how long will this funding be available for, and/or how will it work alongside similar support currently available via the discretionary assistance fund?
Questioning you here last week, I asked whether the Welsh Government will ensure that the £25 million consequential funding flowing to the Welsh Government from the UK Government extension to the household support fund will be targeted, in its entirety, at households hardest hit by the cost-of-living increases beyond the funding announcements you made before this additional funding was announced. Your response was unclear. Will the Welsh Government therefore target this funding, in its entirety, at households hardest hit by the cost-of-living increases—yes or no? If yes, when will its allocation be announced and are the Welsh Government fuel voucher scheme and Fuel Bank heat fund part of this?
I was a member of the Equality, Local Government and Communities committee that undertook the inquiry into 'Benefits in Wales: options for better delivery' during the last Senedd term. After hearing from a range of witnesses, including the Bevan Foundation and Community Housing Cymru, our 2019 committee report recommended the establishment of
'a coherent and integrated "Welsh benefits system" for all the means-tested benefits for which it is responsible...co-produced with people who claim these benefits and the wider Welsh public.'
As the committee stated:
'It is a matter of basic fairness that people receive all the support to which they are entitled, as easily as possible.'
The Welsh Government accepted this recommendation. What action have you therefore taken to deliver on this?
Research by the Building Communities Trust prior to the 2021 Senedd elections found that people in Wales feeling increasingly less able to influence decisions affecting their local area. They highlighted the Local Trust's 'Left behind?' report in England, which evidences the poorer areas with greater community capacity and social infrastructure have better health and well-being outcomes, higher rates of employment and lower levels of child poverty compared to poorer areas without, adding:
'We believe there is big opportunity for a future Welsh Government to develop better support for community-led, long-term, local approaches in Wales'.
What consideration have you therefore given to the 'Left behind?' report, or will you be doing so?
The Welsh Government's—

Mark, you've had over your time now, so conclude, please.

Mark Isherwood AC: Okay, I'll finish. The Welsh Government's cost-of-living support scheme guidance for local authorities allows for payments to be made until the scheme closes on 30 September, but leaves it to them to decide when. What action, finally, therefore, is the Welsh Government taking to address concerns raised by residents in a number of local authority areas about the delay in paying the council tax rebate to those who do not pay their council tax by direct debit?

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much, Mark Isherwood. I would be very surprised, as chair of the cross-party group on fuel poverty, if you did not recognise the deepening of the cost-of-living crisis and the failure of the UK Government to address these issues with their tax and welfare powers. It's just in terms of recognising, as I've said, that the UK Government holds the primary levers for the tax and benefits system.
Welsh Ministers have repeatedly called on UK Ministers to introduce a lower price cap for low-income households, and I got that support from energy providers I met, to ensure they're able to meet the costs of energy needs now and in the future. No response from the UK Government. We also have asked for them to introduce a significant increase in the rebate paid through schemes such as the Warm Homes discount and winter fuel schemes. We've asked them to remove all social and environmental policy costs from household energy bills and meet these costs from general taxation. We've asked for the £20 uplift in universal credit to be restored, but crucially important, and this is where it does lie, the responsibility, in Downing Street, they should uplift, uprate benefit payments for 2022-23 to match inflation instead of using the September 2021 consumer price index figure of 3.1 per cent. Inflation is now 9 per cent and rising.
I won't spend time today actually quoting what other countries are doing, certainly in the EU, which is a great deal more than this UK Government, but look to France, Italy and Germany. Germany is introducing subsidies for low-income households, spending an extra €15 billion on fuel subsidies, cutting petrol and diesel taxes, providing people with one-off payments, extra childcare support, public transport discounts. Those are the sorts of measures that we should be seeing from the UK Government.
But I'm glad that you do welcome the announcement I made on Friday. There is a full written statement, of course, that came out on Friday, Mark, and you will know that I launched this in Wrexham. I launched it in in Wrexham because the figures show people on prepayment metres in north Wales have been the hardest hit in the UK by rising standing charges. In fact, the First Minister commented on that in his questions. Costs are increasing in north Wales by 102 per cent, the highest in the UK, and standing charges for people on prepayment metres in south Wales have risen by 94 per cent, the fourth highest in Britain.
Now, we're doing this with the Fuel Bank Foundation. They have already engaged—we heard earlier on about some foodbanks, including Blaenau Gwent, which I visited and met the fuel foundation, and also in north Wales, in Wrexham, where there are eight centres. There are eight centres—eight centres—for the Wrexham foodbank, and they've already, with funding previously from the Welsh Government for tackling winter pressures, been actually providing these fuel vouchers. Now, the whole of Wales will be benefiting, and it is important that, as you see in the written statement and response to your questions, nearly 120,000 people—it was in my statement—will be eligible for approximately 49,000 vouchers to support them during the cost-of-living crisis.
Now, the heat fund is important too. It'll provide direct support to eligible households living off the gas grid, reliant on oil and liquid gas. I've already said in my statement it should help up to 2,000 households in Wales. I think it would be very helpful, actually, if Mark, as chair of the cross-party group on fuel poverty, could invite the fuel bank heat fund perhaps to one of your cross-party group meetings, because they're now fully engaged and a partnership—[Interruption.] Good, good. Well, I'm very glad to hear that. So, what is clear to us is that we have to work in partnership—in answer to your questions—with the third sector. National Energy Action joined the meeting I had with energy providers only two weeks ago. Citizens Advice is obviously crucial. When I met with Wrexham foodbank volunteers, and the Fuel Bank Foundation, they were saying one of the most important points about visiting a foodbank—and there are many other food initiatives that are very important—is it starts to signpost people to other support, to be able to claim for other benefits. People with prepayment meters are the most susceptible to rising costs and increased standing charges, and those who are not connected to the mains gas network, as I said last week, are suffering from rising fuel costs and being forced into fuel poverty, with approximately one in 10 households reliant on heating oil in Wales. But I can assure you, in terms of engaging at community level and, indeed, in terms of those national charities and campaign groups, they were all involved in our cost-of-living summit last February and then forward into the food poverty summit, and the summit that we're going to have, they'll be invited to again, in July.
You did ask—and I'll finish on this point—an important point about the payment of the council tax cost-of-living payment. It's being provided, as everyone knows, to council tax bands A to D, and, indeed, to those who already have accounts. It is going directly into their accounts, and I'm sure all the Members will be aware of people saying, 'It's gone into my account.' Those who don't have accounts, which is your question, it is the responsibility of the local authority to explore, to find out from that particular benefit recipient for the £150, the best way to make that payment, and that's being monitored very carefully by the Minister for Finance and Local Government, and indeed my own officials. But the payments that are being made extensively across Wales will continue to be paid and we will continue to address those to ensure that they claim what's theirs. Indeed, that's why we can ensure—as our £200 winter fuel support payment and then the £150 payment—indeed, this is where we can get money straight to people, and the fuel voucher now is one more step on the way in terms of helping people face this horrendous cost-of-living crisis, which was made in Downing Street, I would still maintain.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Sioned Williams.

Sioned Williams MS: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you for your statement, Minister. The scale of the crisis facing too many households in Wales is truly horrifying. Inflation, as we've heard, is at a 40-year high, and energy prices are going up 23 times faster than wages. Given this emergency facing households, Plaid Cymru agrees that the UK Government should reinstate the £20 uplift to universal credit from July in order to protect vulnerable households from the cost-of-living crisis, and we believe that that uplift should also be extended to those in receipt of legacy benefits, and that all benefits should be uprated in line with inflation and automatic deductions stopped.
The Child Poverty Action Group have estimated that in Wales approximately 92,000 households claiming universal credit are receiving an average of £60 less each month than they're entitled to because of automatic deductions from their universal credit payment. These deductions affect an estimated 106,000 children in Wales. Wales has the highest poverty rate among the four UK nations, with almost one in four people living in poverty, and thus, if Westminster is unwilling to show the most basic level of human decency and adequately address the scale of this crisis, do you agree, Minister, there can be no argument against demanding powers over welfare so we can better support and protect the people of Wales, those people who need the most help, help that can be best targeted through the benefits system?
We know, as you've said, that the picture will get even worse and the number of those living in fuel poverty or at risk of fuel poverty will rise yet again in the autumn. Can the Minister provide clarity on when the next winter fuel support scheme payment will be made? Will it be made, as she has indicated previously, before October?
The measure announced last week, that of a fuel voucher scheme to help households with prepayment meters that have to pay in advance for their energy, and often, as you said, the poorest of households, is most welcome. I would like to ask—. The First Minister talked about it earlier. He drew attention to the fact, and you have also, that requirements that standing charges and debts are paid off before supply starts up—could this impact the effectiveness of this measure? This would mean that adding a £30-worth fuel voucher to a prepayment account would in some cases not be enough to enable the customer to switch those lights back on, to use the fridge and the cooker, to heat the home. So, how will this new scheme ensure that people will receive enough credit to avoid this situation? And also how do we know if we are helping those who need help? We know that uptake of other measures to tackle fuel poverty has not always been optimal, and so is referral to this scheme the most effective method of distribution? What happens to those who are not in contact with organisations or aware of the scheme?
As costs rise, one of the biggest expenses for families on low incomes is furniture and appliances. The cost of furniture is continuing to rise and, over the past 10 years, the cost of furniture has risen by 32 per cent, while household appliances have risen 17 per cent. Brexit and inflation are now driving these prices even higher. At least 10,000 children in the UK don't have their own bed to sleep on, and 4.8 million are living without at least one essential household appliance, like a cooker or fridge, and these are pre-pandemic figures, which we know will have most likely risen much higher by now.
Only 2 per cent of social housing properties in the UK are let as furnished or partly furnished, compared to 29 per cent in the private rental sector, and some of the research I've done in Wales shows this is the case with many housing associations here too. Furnished tenancies have huge benefit for tenants and landlords, and can ease pressure on crisis support funds like the DAF. Living without essential furniture can have a huge impact on people's mental and physical well-being and create extra cost. For example, up to 15 per cent of heat in your home is lost without flooring, and it is also extremely hard to obtain when you are on a low income. There are charities that provide funding pots for items like this, but not much provision is made for items like flooring, and many social landlords remove flooring, and in some cases there have been cases where tenants have been charged to lift up flooring at the end of their tenancy. So, I wonder, Minister, could you consider working alongside social housing providers to encourage engagement with tenants regarding the retention of former flooring and furniture when applicable. Could this be added to the supplementary terms of the next Renting Homes (Wales) Act contracts? And can the Welsh Government review the terms of the DAF and other crisis funds to include the provision of appropriate flooring? Diolch.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Sioned Williams. Yes, you clearly identify, as I have done, the scale of the crisis—inflation now at its highest level since March 1982, when it stood at 9.1 per cent; April's rise, driven by energy costs, increased by more than 50 per cent by the rise in the energy cap; and the Institute of Fiscal Studies saying the poorest households face inflation rates of 10.9 per cent. The Jack Monroe, I think, analysis is really appropriate for us to recognise—they are 3 per cent higher than inflation rates for the richest decile, and I really do value that focus on what it actually means for the poorest households in Wales, And, of course, there's the fact that we've got the NIESR—National Institute of Economic and Social Research—saying that food and energy bills are greater than their disposable income. They're warning, I think—and this is why this is such a key issue, and throughout this afternoon already, in the First Minister's questions—this is going to push thousands of households, if we can't intervene and the UK Government doesn't take immediate action, into debt and destitution. But this where the options that we've taken, particularly in terms of the fuel vouchers and that partnership with the fuel foundation, I think, are so important. They already have a partnership with the Scottish Government, and they're well-established in terms of how this can operate, so I'm glad that the chair of the cross-party group on fuel poverty is now engaging with the Fuel Bank Foundation, because they have experience of how to manage it. And yes, there are criteria in terms of access to the fuel bank support: clearly, they've got to be pre-payment energy customers or off the gas grid and be in intense financial crisis. But the situation in terms of the credit going as far as the debt emerging from the standing charges—I will clarify that point with them in terms of how this scheme will operate. We need to make it operate based on experience and based on how we can help people at the sharp end.

Jane Hutt AC: People who are struggling as a result of the cost-of-living crisis obviously can turn to their single advice fund providers, and I will go on to the discretionary assistance fund as well, because, obviously, that's already in place. I think it is important that we get this message out, isn't it, about the access to the new fuel voucher scheme. We're getting it out, obviously, through our foodbanks, but of course many people who are going to foodbanks are referred; they have contact with agencies. But this is something where we need to have a publicity campaign, a communications campaign, and I certainly welcome the fact that you're asking these questions. I did some publicity about it on Friday, but we need to get the message through to people, and I know that the fuel foundation want to engage. We did it very quickly—we got this scheme under way, and now we have to make it operational and implement it so we reach out to the most needy and vulnerable. But I'm sure all of us as Senedd Members will know people who've stopped us in the street, who've come to our surgeries, who are in this position—the heating or eating circumstances. And we can now point to the scheme, particularly as so many of those are dependent on prepayment meters.
The next winter fuel support scheme—well, we certainly want to get it out before October; I want to get it out in September. I'll certainly be announcing very shortly the extended criteria for the winter fuel support scheme, because we came to it last December because of the emerging cost-of-living crisis. It's going to be extending the eligibility, as I've said. It's crucial that local authorities are fully engaged in this as well—they're the ones who are managing the winter fuel support payments—and, indeed, alongside the emerging way in which we are actually being a force for social security. I like the word 'social security'. I like the fact that social security is what we believe in. Yes, we're talking about welfare, we're talking in our co-operation agreement about looking at our powers in relation to welfare, and we've had all the work that was done by John Griffiths in the former Senedd, so we've got an extensive evidence base and we have an agreement to progress this in terms of what we could achieve, what we could—you know, in terms of UK Government's centralising force, where are we here? They're not delivering, so I look forward to progressing that. But we now have such a range of direct benefits that we're paying that this makes sense, doesn't it, to progress this one.
Finally, I will come to your point about the other needs that people have in terms of flooring, as well as other equipment as well. I think that's something I want to now discuss with officials and the third sector in terms of discretionary assistance payments. I think the discretionary assistance payments scheme, which we've of course extended for the pandemic, as you know—and you have supported the fact that this is continuing, in the ways in which we're funding it—I think the discretionary assistance fund is very important, because it does enable people to have more than one payment in terms of support—more than £100 million invested in the discretionary assistance fund and the winter fuel support scheme this year. And indeed, this is going to ensure more people continue to receive urgent and emergency support when they need it, and that's including white goods, but we need to look at these other aspects.
But I will finally say, and I think the Minister for Climate Change is here with me, that, yes, indeed—the Minister was with me, speaking as well on a whole range of issues and her responsibilities about the cost-of-living crisis, but registered social landlord partners and local authorities in terms of housing providers, they're all engaged in this, and we will certainly raise this in terms of, particularly, your reference to flooring. Many of us have also got charities in our constituencies now that are playing a role in this respect. There used to be something wonderful called the social fund. That all went. Previous Conservative Governments got rid of the social fund. We kept the funding going and developed the discretionary assistance fund. But we are actually evaluating the discretionary assistance fund later on this year to see its role and its context. So, certainly, that is very helpful. And finally, of course, we've always called for the reinstatement of that £20, that lost, cruel cut of £20 to universal credit.

Mike Hedges AC: I thank the Minister for bringing this statement today. It is very expensive to be poor. You pay more for energy via tokens, you are more likely to live in a very poorly insulated house, you go to bed early to avoid heating costs, and in winter you wake up to windows with ice from your breath on the inside. Rent has gone up, gas has gone up, electricity has gone up, the general cost of living has gone up to a point where people have less to spend on food, and many value products have increased far more than the general increase in the cost of food. People are eating less or skipping meals, or are having less nutritious food, bulking out on white rice and pasta and cutting out the more expensive fresh fruit and vegetables, and producing filling meals, not nutritious meals. And, of course, in the end, children eat and parents don't.
I welcome the Welsh Government's actions—I won't name them all, but things such as help with fuel costs support, the cost of sending your children to school, Healthy Start vouchers, support for hundreds of thousands of people with council tax bills every year, and I also welcome the two successful 'Claim what's yours' campaigns, and the most recent was very successful. Does the Minister agree, however, that the most effective action would be to strip out the built-in five-week delay for the first universal credit payment, which drives people into poverty immediately, and to reverse the universal credit cut? This is not a panacea that will solve all the problems, but it would make what is very bad just bad.

Jane Hutt AC: Well, thank you very much, Mike Hedges. You graphically describe what it is like to be poor, and it is more expensive to be poor in every aspect of life, and how cruel that is, in terms of food, heating, housing. So, thanks for welcoming many of the measures that we're taking. I completely agree with you, and I will return to that issue with the UK Government, about the five-week delay, because, when universal credit was introduced, we all said this was going to be disastrous, and, indeed, it was disastrous, just in terms of the pilot roll-out and the debt that started to accrue.
Now, one of the things that is very clear is that, also, it's not only expensive to be poor, but in every way, in terms of your health, well-being, mental health, your whole self-esteem and your whole reason for living is under threat and attacked by poverty. And to then have to deal with the debt imposed on you by that five-week delay is absolutely shameful. So, thank you for raising that. Of course, I've already said that we call for the reverse of the universal credit cut, but I will be going back now to look at these issues. And, indeed, of course, they did come up with the equality and social justice review on debt, but I will go back on that to the UK Government.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: I and Plaid Cymru have raised the link between the cost-of-living crisis and the cost of housing a number of times on the floor of the Senedd, and the link is clear. We've seen the cost of rental going up very much here in Wales, an increase of 12 or 13 per cent over the past 12 months alone, and this at a time when the legislation for renting homes isn't operational in order to safeguard tenants from being evicted with notice of two months.
To date, I'm sorry to say that the solutions provided today or during the last 12 months have not gone far enough in order to tackle the housing element of the cost-of-living crisis. This week, the Bevan Foundation published research showing that only 24 properties were available throughout Wales at the LHA rates—the local housing allowance rates. Now, we must see this allowance being increased. So, what discussions have you had with the Westminster Government in order to see the allowance increased?
And, finally, the current housing crisis is painfully acute. So, we must use all tools possible. As you mentioned in your statement, we do have the power here to use discretionary payments for housing costs—the DHP. As the renting homes Act isn't in force as of yet, and there's a real crisis facing many people, will you work with the Minister for finance in order to ensure that there is an increase in the discretionary payments for housing, and ensure that local authorities do take full advantage of that pot of funding?

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much for your very important question.

Jane Hutt AC: Of course, as we've said, and as we know—and the Minister for Climate Change is with us this afternoon and engaged with all of these discussions—it's a cross-government responsibility in terms of tackling the cost-of-living crisis, with housing providers, social housing providers, but also the private rented sector being engaged as well.
Just in terms of cuts to the local housing allowance, the cuts have been over the years and it hasn't been increased and it's remained frozen. But, I think you will be aware of the statement made by the climate change Minister on 8 April about the discretionary housing payments. I've raised all of the points that have been raised with the UK Government about what we expect them to do in terms of energy costs and support, the Warm Homes discount, et cetera, but also, as Julie James did last April, we've called upon the UK Government to reinstate its funding for discretionary housing payments—another round of substantial cuts to this valuable source of funding. That money is used by local authorities, as you know, to mitigate the impacts of other welfare reforms, including the bedroom tax, people affected by the benefit cap, and, of course, the impact of rising rents. And it does help tenants from getting into rent arrears when people are facing this cost-of-living crisis, as you say, with rents increasing. And it is impossible to fathom why—and I'm quoting the Minister for Climate Change:
'it is impossible to fathom why the UK government has seen fit to inflict such savage cuts',
in terms of discretionary housing payments. Many people are not aware of all these details, are they, and what's going on, but, actually, the reduction in DHP funding available to Welsh local authorities in this financial year amounts to approximately a 27 per cent cut compared to 2021-22. So, we've topped it up. The Welsh Government's topped up the fund last year by £4.1 million, and the amount of money that we are now putting into all of these schemes and also the top-ups, to something that is a UK Government responsibility, this has to be addressed by the UK Government, and I can assure you that's what we're seeking to call for.

And, finally, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. One of the defining characteristics of much of the support that Welsh Government has provided to date is how well targeted it is at those who are most in need. So, whether we look at the fuel voucher scheme, the heat fund, the healthy start fund, the new fund for carers, it's really going directly to those who most need it now. The same cannot be said, Dirprwy Lywydd, I have to say, of one of the UK Government's schemes, which is the energy grant to all households, which is going to every household, and if you own more than one household, then it goes to you no matter how many homes you own.
But can I raise one specific aspect of this that I'd like the Minister—? And also, it's great to have the other Minister here with responsibility for housing as well. They've probably twigged this already. The Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, the UK department, has said, regardless of whether you are on the utility bills as a tenant or not, then this payment of £400 should be passed directly to you as a tenant; it should not be going to the landlords. But it's not stipulated anywhere; it's not a requirement, it's just 'should' be. Citizens Advice have asked for clear guidance on this, but again, that's guidance. I wonder, Minister, whether in your discussions with UK Ministers and Cabinet colleagues, you can look at how we can make sure that this money goes directly to tenants and not to landlords.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr. That's a really important point. I'm sure the Minister for Climate Change is already aware of that, concerns again coming from Citizens Advice, our single advice providers, and unless it's absolutely clear and mandated that it goes to the tenant, we can't trust it. So, we will take that point up. Thank you very much, Huw Irranca-Davies.

I thank the Minister.

4. Statement by the Minister for Climate Change: Gwent Levels / Nature Recovery Exemplar Areas

Item 4 is next, a statement by the Minister for Climate Change on the Gwent levels, nature recovery exemplar areas. And I call on the Minister, Julie James.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I am really pleased to be able to speak today about the progress being made across one of Wales's most important protected areas, the Gwent levels. As a Government, tackling the climate and nature emergencies is very much at the heart of everything we do. We must protect our environment for future generations to enjoy, and to play our part on the global stage. Globally, nature is still being lost at a frightening rate, and the situation in Wales is similar, with a rapid decline in our most precious species and habitats. I am absolutely committed to helping reverse this decline, and that is why I am currently working on a biodiversity deep dive, focused on our 30x30 target, to, at the very least, protect 30 per cent of our land and sea by 2030.
The Gwent levels are an important part of the contribution to meeting this ambition, and the focus must now be on improving the condition of this protected area and its margins. The levels are of national importance for their biodiversity and landscape, being designated by a series of sites of special scientific interest, as well as being a landscape of outstanding historic interest. Their location, adjacent to Cardiff and Newport, and into Monmouthshire, also make them a valuable cultural and recreation asset for locals and visitors.
In July last year, I released a written statement on taking action to better protect and manage the Gwent levels, following the decision not to proceed with the M4 relief road in 2019. Today, I am updating Members on the progress being made and the measures I am supporting to ensure the levels have the right level of protection and management in place to preserve their unique interest.
In February 2020, the Welsh Government convened a Gwent levels working group, chaired by John Griffiths MS, to explore how the levels could be better protected and managed. The group is now well-established and includes representation from the Welsh Government, Natural Resources Wales, local government, environmental non-governmental organisations, and other local groups, and has developed a strategic action plan of its shared priorities.
Having visited the levels last July, and met members of the working group last September, I've been very impressed by their enthusiasm and dedication to the protection and management of the Gwent levels. This partnership approach, adopted by the Living Levels Landscape Partnership, has delivered significant achievements on the ground in terms of habitat restoration and management, as well as extensive community participation and engagement with nature and the cultural history of the area. This is an exemplar of the partnership approach that is so vital across an area or landscape, to focus the many actions that are needed to reverse biodiversity loss and help nature recovery. Since July, good progress has been made.
I'm very pleased to say that, thanks to the hard work of the Living Levels partnership and the working group members, further funding has now been secured to support the partnership for a further 18 months. This will help the partnership develop longer term management arrangements and vision for the levels, as well as the co-ordination of more restoration work and continued engagement activities.
One of the priorities identified by the working group is to help address the pressures for development on the SSSI sites by developing a better evidence base and guidance for developers and planners to inform development decisions. Getting this right is absolutely vital for these SSSI sites, and I have approved the development of strategic planning guidance for the area, which I want to see taken forward at pace. This will be the first pilot of the 'Future Wales' policy 9 approach to proactively embed biodiversity considerations into planning policies within national natural resource management areas in Wales.
The working group also identified the need to accelerate the programme of habitat restoration and management on the levels, so it can continue to support wildlife and deliver the huge range of benefits it does, both globally, locking up carbon, and locally, providing a natural and culturally rich place for people to enjoy. Drawing on the great work that has already been achieved, the partnership will continue to work with farmers, land managers and volunteer groups, who are vital to the success of this work.
To contribute towards the habitat restoration and management work, I have agreed with the First Minister to review the suitability of land that was acquired for the M4 relief road. This will help us better understand the biodiversity potential of these sites, which will help inform the decisions we make on their future. I'm pleased that consultants have now been appointed to produce a strategic enhancement plan, which will start with site survey work this summer, and will be completed by the end of this financial year.
And, as already mentioned, I am currently conducting a biodiversity deep dive. This is focused on the Wales approach to implementing the Convention on Biological Diversity post-2020 global biodiversity framework to protect 30 per cent of our land and 30 per cent of our sea by 2030. I'll be asking participants how we can harness and expand the collaborative working exemplified by the Living Levels partnership, and other similar partnerships across Wales, to ensure our valuable sites are protected and effectively managed for the future. I look forward to sharing the outcomes of the biodiversity deep dive and its recommendations with Members in September, once it's concluded. Diolch.

Conservative spokesperson, Janet Finch-Saunders.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you, Deputy Llywydd, and thank you, Minister, for the statement. I think there's one thing we can agree on and that is the need to protect 30 per cent of our land and sea by 2030. Now, however, as you know, I've been asking, since October, what is the reason why we can't set these targets into law. You responded to me then, saying, 'I am considering the role that legislation can play in underpinning nature recovery targets more broadly, including the 30x30 target.' So, eight months on, have you made a legislative decision on the 30x30 target, or are you going to make Wales wait until you have the outcome of the biodiversity deep dive?
I suppose, for me, it's a little extraordinary that the statement has just been made in relation to the Gwent levels specifically, because it gives me the impression that you regard the SSIs there with greater priority and importance than those in every other corner of Wales. If not, will we be seeing oral statements on SSIs everywhere else in Wales coming forward? What is the crux, really, of this statement? Is it that you are taking steps to further campaign against an M4 relief road for Newport? And, in light of the decision to review the suitability of land that was acquired for the M4 relief road, will you clarify whether it is your ambition to see the land blocked from being used for a highway, and state—tell us—how much the consultants are being paid for the strategic enhancement plan?
As you know, the Gwent levels working group has already been created to explore better methods of protecting the Gwent levels, while acknowledging the need to maintain the area's significant historical importance to Wales. The working group is made up of representatives from the Welsh Government, NRW and other environmental NGOs, and they've met six times since it was formed, but have yet to publish an action plan. And according to you, any plan formalised would not necessarily be made public. I suppose I ask why that's the case. And how can we expect the people of Wales to entrust us with safeguarding them and their livelihoods, if you will not consult and communicate with them on your action plan for the Gwent levels? Currently, Wales is the only country in the UK that is not contributing data to the UK biodiversity indicator on the condition of areas or sites of special scientific interest. So, as a result, 70 per cent of the 60 SSIfeature condition assessments on the Gwent levels are unknown. So, why, Minister, has the Welsh Government been so inactive on changing this by taking the initiative to improve data collection? And what assurances can you give that the target of having 100 per cent of SSIs in a favourable condition by 2026 will be achieved?
It's not just me that's worried about this. In fact, Wales Environment Link have produced a checklist for nature recovery. It includes how Ministers do need to be engaged in delivering a coherent response, as well as regular monitoring, review and reporting against targets. So, Minister, would you outline what steps you have taken to co-operate with environmental stakeholders, so that any future work is developed based on a broad and experienced group? And can we, please, have some transparency and allow any reports, any plans, to be made public? Thank you. Diolch.

Julie James AC: Well, I don't know quite where to start with that, Janet. The level of cynicism shown in your remarks has quite staggered me, frankly, even for your good self. So, I'll try and address some of the things that you raised.
So, first of all, the Living Levels partnership has worked its socks off. It's chaired by John Griffiths, whom I'm sure will make a contribution shortly to the debate, and who was recently joined by Jayne Bryant MS. It's a series of people who've come together because they really care about their area. And the idea that this is somehow conducted in a cloak of secrecy, et cetera, et cetera, is just rubbish,frankly—absolute rubbish. I just don't know where you're coming from with any of that.
In terms of the actual targets, '30 per cent of the land, 30 per cent of the sea, by 2030' is a really great global headline, but we don't yet know what it means in order to present targets. Is it 30 per cent of every local authority area, of every community council, 30 per cent of the overall land mass of Wales? We don't know what it means. I want to have targets that mean something, that mean that we can have our feet held to the fire properly so that, when we have these targets in place, we know what they mean. The biodiversity deep dive is made up of a whole series of experts on this, and a series of stakeholder meetings meeting in parallel. They are the people who will help us do that to make sense of what the global '30 by 30' means. That's a great slogan, but it doesn't translate into a detailed target, and that's what we're working on.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Delyth Jewell.

Delyth Jewell AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. As we know, the Gwent levels are a vital hub for nature, protected nationally and internationally. The 900 miles of waterways know locally as reens are a chorus of life and home to hundreds of rare creatures. Numerous rare birds live there and migrate there to breed. More than 144 species of threatened bugs and beetles are also amongst those that have made their home there. I'm proud to be the species champion for one of the Gwent levels' smallest residents, the shrill carder bee, one of the UK's rarest bumblebees. The numbers of this bumblebee have sharply declined in recent years, and over the last century as well. It's now found in only seven areas in southern England and in Wales, including the Gwent levels. They are a vital hub for biodiversity and recreation. They're an example of international best practice when it comes to conservation as well, and I'll be asking you about that in a moment, Minister.
The vibrant cities and towns in my region that surround the edges of the levels reinforce a sense of tranquillity, remoteness, wildness away from human occupation in many places, but it is an area that belongs to all of us, those living now and those yet to be born, of course. The successful conservation work that has taken place in the Gwent levels has only been possible due to the provision of sufficient funding in recent years. Could you please outline, Minister, or could you give us an indication of, the funding that will be allocated in the long term to the conservation projects that are going on in the Gwent levels?
In order to inform effective conservation work, monitoring, as we've heard already, is absolutely essential. But, across Wales, monitoring is insufficient. There are gaps in vitally important data. While monitoring should be undertaken by professionals or by experts, there is scope to empower local people or visitors to nature sites to undertake their own monitoring as well through uploading photographs to databases. That would really help us to make sure that, when we're addressing the nature crisis, the nature emergency that we have, everyone feels that they have a stake in this—that it's something that we shouldn't just be concerned about, but actually trying to solve it is something that we can all be involved in, and we can celebrate the wonderful diversity that's there. So, I'd like to know how the Welsh Government is supporting monitoring work in the Gwent levels, please, and beyond. Could you provide us some further information on this, particularly on how local people or visitors from any part of Wales or the world can be part of that?
And finally, in terms of the lessons that you've learned from effective conservation work in the Gwent levels in terms of best practice in conservation and nature recovery, what bearing will any findings have on the Welsh Government's efforts to halt biodiversity decline and bring about substantive nature recovery in the long term, please? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Delyth. I share your enthusiasm for it. I haven't been lucky enough to see one of the bees yet, but I've tried a couple of times. I've certainly seen pictures and videos, but not yet in person, so I'm looking forward to that.
The reason for bringing this forward today is because what we're looking to see if we can develop is a long-term sustainable management vehicle for areas such as the Gwent levels. Clearly, we're not just talking about the Gwent levels, but the whole landmass of Wales. What we're looking to do is see if we can develop a sustainable management model that allows all partners to come together. The Gwent levels partnership is supported by the Welsh Government, but it's also supported by the RSPB, the Gwent Wildlife Trust, NRW, and a number of other partners. What we're looking to see is how we can get that sustainable model to work in a number of different areas and types of landscape in Wales.
Clearly, the Welsh Government cannot fund all of this. If that's what we're going to try and do, we'll be miles off our target. This is about how we can facilitate the best model to come together of citizen science and local volunteers and all of the NGOs that come together, alongside the charities and third sector organisations in that sustainable model. It crucially isn't pivotal on one enthusiastic individual being the pivot point; we're all familiar across the Chamber with places where that happens. So, that's why we're focusing on it—because it's a bit more advanced, it's got a number of people very interested in it.
Part of what the Living Levels partnership is doing is looking at the models of data collection—how do you do some kind of baseline, what does good conservation status really look like, how can we spread that out. I'm also very interested—and I'm using the biodiversity deep dive expertise to do this—in what kind of protection should areas like the Gwent levels have. It's not a national park, it's not currently designated, but it has got a lot of sites of special scientific interest. I say this a lot, and I make no apology for repeating it: if you stop Mr and Mrs Jones on the street somewhere in Wales and you say, 'What level of protection does a piece of land of special scientific interest have?', they're unlikely to think that you could put a car park on it. But, at the moment, you could, really, in some circumstances, do that. So, one of the big things we're also doing is looking at the strategic planning guidance for these areas to actually firm up on the protections—what does this mean.
My own personal view, and I stress it's not the Government's view, is that that hurdle should be very high indeed. You can't say 'never, never, never', because you don't know what will happen, but you can say 'almost never, never, never', depending on a really extreme circumstance where that is, so that we can secure these areas in order to halt the decline that we see at the moment, and then, of course, reverse it and then spread out. There's a big issue as well about the buffer zones around the edge, and so on. So, the Living Levels partnership is just a model that we're looking at to see if we can spread that out.

John Griffiths AC: Minister, thank you very much for your statement today, but also thank you very much for your commitment and Welsh Government's commitment to taking forward protection and sustainability for the Gwent levels. As you know, a great deal of good work has already happened through the Living Levels partnership, and we really need to build on that through a body that can take forward that work, and have long-term sustainable funding, and then focus with partners on the action that's required to take forward biodiversity and the ecosystems. I know you are very committed to that, Minister, and I would like you just to say a little bit about how that future can be ensured.
On the planning issues, it's very good to see the work that's going on in terms of the strategic policy 9 and everything that goes around it, but you will know as well, Minister, that there are some current short-term pressures in terms of planning applications, for example solar farms, which, taken with those already in place, really change the nature of the area because of the prevalence of solar farms and the applications coming in. I know, Minister, you would expect developing Welsh Government policy and statements to be taken into account in the short term while the longer term work goes on, and I wonder if you could just say a little about those current applications in general—not any particular one—and developing Welsh Government thinking and the impact that that should have on decision making. And—

No, John. You've had your time, I'm sorry, and you've asked the questions.

John Griffiths AC: Okay. Diolch yn fawr.

Julie James AC: Diolch, John. I know, John, you're very enthusiastic, and I'm very grateful for your chairing of the Living Levels partnership, which has certainly helped us move it on. We absolutely do need to improve the strategic planning guidance for the areas I mentioned previously. I can't comment on a number of outstanding planning applications for obvious reasons, so I'm not going anywhere near that. But just in general terms, as I said, this is going to be the first pilot of 'Future Wales' policy 9, the approach for mainstreaming biodiversity and ecosystem resilience into planning policies, and to ensure that as part of that pilot of policy 9, we get the right social, economic, cultural and environmental developments in the right place to enhance that biodiversity and ecosystem resilience. That's going to take the form of a masterplan for the area, which we've got, as you know, consultants working on.
We've sought views—as I know you know, John, from the Gwent Living Levels working group—on the governance approach needed to represent the political and technical interests around building this policy up and the guidance that needs to go with it on biodiversity and ecosystem resilience. I'm absolutely determined to make this a pilot area for this model of governance and planning policy, because this is a vital area—alongside many others in Wales, of course—of biodiversity and resilience. It's the green lungs of a big set of urban conurbations around its edges, as you know, John, and it's a source of rich carbon depositing and biodiversity. It's a really good example of carbon capture in a non-tree form as well, because, as I keep saying to people, the tree's just the iconic symbol for a whole range of different landscape types across Wales that support a range of biodiversity. I'm very determined to get that pilot up and running ASAP. We'll get the strategic planning guidance out and I remain very grateful indeed for your part in chairing the group.

Finally, Jayne Bryant.

Jayne Bryant AC: Diolch, Deputy Llywydd. Thank you for that important statement, Minister. I'd like to pay tribute to the group chaired by my good friend John Griffiths, because it's done some incredible work over the time that it's been formed. The Gwent levels are a fantastic resource that needs to be treasured and protected. It formed around 8,000 years ago, and the man-made landscape dates back to the Romans. It really is a stunning part of Wales that I would urge anyone who hasn't been to visit.
I know that its importance is very much recognised by you, Minister, but I'd like to take this opportunity to push for more tools to be given to public bodies for them to be able to fight effectively in its defence. A particular threat is that of industrial-scale fly-tipping, where criminals utilise the levels' isolation but relatively easy access to the M4 to dump tonnes of refuse and waste. Local government and NRW do their best to issue fines and notices, but community groups have often found these processes arduous, and the fines issued comparatively ineffective. Can the Minister please look at the processes we use to protect the levels and whether there are any ways we can look to arm public bodies with stronger powers and deterrents, so that firmer and swifter action can be taken against the selfish criminal organisations that exploit this fantastic landscape?

Julie James AC: Thank you very much indeed, Jayne Bryant. That's a very important point, isn't it, because we need to do a number of things. I'm very happy to look again at whether we can strengthen the enforcement abilities of the various agencies around it, but actually, what we really need to do is make it so obvious that this is a site of special scientific interest and nature conservation that it becomes just unthinkable that somebody would behave in such a way. This goes for all the sites across Wales, not just this particular one. So, we need to do more, don't we? We need to make sure that it's actively buzzing with nature—if you'll forgive the pun—and that's a deterrent in itself, really. So, I think there are two strands to that.
I'm very, very happy to look again at what can be done about the very specific issue that you raise. I'd be very grateful, if you have any instances you'd like to bring to my attention specifically, if you do that. But more importantly, this is about making sure that the network of people across the levels—and, of course, the other sites across Wales—come together to make it just socially unacceptable in the biggest way possible for anyone to behave like that. We know that getting hearts and minds on board, getting inclusion on board, is one of the best ways to do that. Diolch.

Thank you, Minister.

5. Statement by the Minister for Health and Social Services: Draft HIV Action Plan

Item 5, a statement by the Minister for Health and Social Services on the draft HIV action plan. I call on the Minister, Eluned Morgan.

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch yn fawr. I am very pleased to present this HIV action plan to the Senedd. This delivers on our ambitious programme for government commitments that we made to develop an HIV action plan for Wales and to tackle the stigma experienced by those living with HIV.
Even though we've made significant strides in many HIV-related areas in recent years, there remains much to be done. This action plan sets out 26 ambitious but achievable actions for implementation by 2026, which we think will go a long way in helping Wales achieve the World Health Organization's target of zero HIV infections by 2030, and, crucially, adopting a zero-tolerance approach to HIV-related stigma. I think the latter is specifically significant; we've come a very long way since the dark days of the 1980s, when ignorance and cruelty towards people with HIV was rife. There is absolutely no place for ignorance and intolerancein modern society, and the actions in this plan aim to stamp out this intolerance.
Now, over the past five years, the Welsh Government, working with other partners, has made great progress in improving access to testing and treatment in Wales. And I think that Wales can be proud of the significant reduction we've seen in new diagnoses of HIV. Between 2015 and 2021, new diagnosis of HIV decreased by 75 per cent. A significant factor in this achievement can be attributed to the commitment by Welsh Government to provide pre-exposure prophylaxis, PrEP, for all for whom it is clinically indicated, and that's been done since the summer of 2017.
Despite the challenges that faced sexual health services throughout the COVID pandemic, access to HIV testing was maintained, both through face-to-face consultations, and through the rapid deployment of online testing. And this blended model of access to HIV tests has resulted in more people being tested for HIV between January and March 2022 than in any previous quarter.The online service that was implemented in May 2020 has exceeded expectations in terms of the expected number of tests requested, making sexually transmitted infection testing, including HIV, even more accessible, which reduces stigma. The success of this model is recognised in the action plan, and I'm pleased to announce today that the Welsh Government will be providing annual funding of £3.9 million for the continuation and development of this online testing platform going forward.
This action plan has been co-created by a range of key stakeholders and is the product of many months of collaborative working with my officials. In the autumn of 2021 we established an HIV action plan working group, chaired by Dr Marion Lyons, a senior medical officer in Welsh Government, with a vast amount of experience in the field of HIV and sexual health. The group consisted of a diverse range of stakeholders, including those from the community and voluntary sector, healthcare professionals, academics and, importantly—very importantly—people living with HIV with personal lived experience.

Eluned Morgan AC: The 26 actions are underpinned by three core principles: that there should be zero tolerance of HIV-related stigma; that all plans for implementation of new initiatives and services will be informed by, or developed with, people living with HIV. Alongside this, there will be a recognition of contextual differences by sexuality, ethnicity, age, gender and location. All new initiatives and services will be subject to ongoing monitoring and evaluation to make sure that they meet the actions and principles laid out in the plan. The group was clear that no-one should be left behind, that inclusivity and diversity should be encouraged and celebrated, and that all the communities we serve should be an integral part of the dialogue, the debate and the decision making on HIV going forward.
The 26 actions are focused on five key areas: prevention, testing, clinical care, living well with HIV and tackling HIV-related stigma. In addition, there are five key overarching actions. Firs, establishing Wales as a Fast Track Nation. Building on the great success of Fast Track Cardiff & Vale, the first fast-track collaboration in Wales, which has been a highly successful in involving local public bodies, increasing collaborative work, and producing new initiatives, including GP support for HIV testing and an advocacy network, both of which have attracted non-statutory funding. The aspiration of the plan is to make Wales a Fast Track Nation, with networks throughout Wales that would collaborate to help achieve Wales's ambition to have no new HIV cases by 2030.
Secondly, recognising the importance of, and increasing the involvement of voluntary and community groups. This action plan has been developed with partners such as Pride Cymru and Terrence Higgins Trust, whose work builds on the legacy of Cardiff AIDS helpline and Cardiff Body Positive. In addition to their work, the work of third sector HIV groups like PrEPster, National AIDS Trust, Positively UK and CHIVA, the children's HIV association, have all been vital in the fight against HIV in recent years. All of these organisations will remain instrumental in the fight against HIV in the coming years.
Thirdly, funding and developing an all-Wales sexual health case-management system. This system will be transformative in the way that sexual health data and intelligence is collected and the way in which trends are monitored. Fourthly, health boards and trusts will be required to report annually to the Welsh Government on how the actions from the HIV action plan are being taken forward and are making a difference. And lastly, establishing an action plan oversight group, which will monitor the impact that the delivery of the action plan has made.
I'm hugely grateful to those partners and stakeholders who have co-created this plan. The plan will now be subject to a 12-week consultation period. I encourage as many people as possible to contribute to this process and to respond and comment on the proposed actions. I firmly believe that, by accepting and implementing these actions, we can make a significant difference to the lives of people living with HIV and in protecting current and future generations from the virus. I look forward to reading the consultation responses and to bringing the final plan back to the Senedd later in the year. Thank you.

Russell George AC: Can I thank you, Minister, for your statement today? Of course, it was very interesting to read the plan when it dropped into my inbox this morning. I very much welcome the plan today, and, of course, as a nation, we've made huge strides, haven't we, since the fight against HIV back in the 1980s? And as a very young person in the mid 1980s, I just about remember some of the issues around the stigma at the time. And that remained the case for some time afterwards. But I think we've made huge strides in fighting that, but, of course, there's more to do.
Now, the English HIV action plan and the Scottish HIV elimination plan both include annual reporting to Westminster and Holyrood. It wasn't mentioned in your plan today, but is it your intention to bring forward annual progress reporting to this Chamber here? Certainly, I would support that, because I think that would maintain the momentum and increase that accountability that I think we need.
Will Wales meet the UNAIDS 95-95-95 target by 2025, which is, of course, a global target set? I just wanted to check that that is your intention, Minister. I don't think it set out that in the plan.
In the testing section, there is a very important commitment of an anonymised seroprevalence study undertaken by Public Health Wales for HIV and blood-borne viruses. This will, of course, ensure that we know if a version of A&E opt-out testing would work in areas like Cardiff and potentially Wrexham. So, can I ask why that doesn't appear in the plan as an action in its own right?
Unlike England, there's no focus on partner notification—current and previous partners—of those diagnoses, and statistically that's the most impactful focus for testing, as I understand. It does go unmentioned in the plan, so I wonder, Minister, would you outline if you intend for the plan to do this? In the report, there are no targets for sexual health clinics to ensure that all their services offer a HIV test. So, this could be a good tool to implement, as I feel it would, of course, increase testing and reduce health inequalities as well. So, I wonder if, Minister, you could look to implementing this, as it would be good, perhaps, to include this as a key performance indicator for sexual health clinics.
You mentioned, Minister, that you want to introduce HIV education into the school curriculum, which I very much welcome, but I would like, perhaps, a little bit more clarity on that. To which age groups will this be introduced? I think it's important to understand that. I think there are a few issues around here to consider in terms of what age of children this will be taught to and when this will be introduced. Will HIV education become part of the same general teaching about STIs that is already in place, or will this be taught at a more in-depth level?
I think I saw in your press release, Minister, there's a mention of £3.9 million for further development for online testing. Does that sum include the—? Is that sum included for the full finance available to deliver the actions within the plan, or do you anticipate further funding being made available?
But, overall, Minister, I very much welcome, and of course I would encourage people to come forward and get tested, so we can eradicate infection and break the stigma. Thanks, Minister.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much, Russell. Certainly, when it comes to reporting—and obviously, this is a consultation, so there's an opportunity for people to throw in their ideas beyond what has been set out so far—but, certainly, in terms of monitoring, we are very clear that there's going to be an oversight group to make sure that the 26 actions that have been set out are actually monitored and they are taken seriously. If you would like me to come back and to report to the Senedd, and, of course, I'd be more than happy to do that, because this is one of our key manifesto commitments—. This was absolutely central to our manifesto, and so any opportunity that you are happy to give us to demonstrate how we are delivering on our manifesto commencements, of course we are happy to do that.
I think in terms of the targets that have been set out by international organisations, yes, we're very much in keeping with those targets that have been set out, and, certainly, if it comes to partnership notification, I think we've got to be a little bit sensitive here. We've got to make sure that we're sensitive in terms of respecting privacy. What we don't want is for people not to come forward if there's going to be an issue, but, again, I'm happy to take a lead from experts who can tell me what the evidence shows us is the best way to behave in that space.
When it comes to sexual health clinics, of course HIV tests are available, and when it comes to education in the school curriculum, I of course will be working closely with the education Minister, who I know will want to ensure that we're taking an age-appropriate approach to this, and he'll, I'm sure, be taking a lead from the experts in that space. So, I think Jeremy Miles is better placed to inform about how exactly that will work into the school curriculum.
When it comes to the money, I've set out that we've got £3.9 million—that's for all testing, not just online testing—additional funding, but, of course, that's on top of what we already spend in each individual health board. So, we don't give the money to health boards and ring-fence it at the moment, but this money is ring-fenced; this is additional money that is ring-fenced, but that's on top of what is already being done by the health boards across Wales.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: May I thank the Minister for this statement? I'm also looking forward to seeing what kind of responses there are to the consultation that's now ongoing. This is very important and, on the face of it, it is the fruit of partnership working, as we should see happening in Wales, where different organisations who want to see us making ground in this area have been involved in its development. We were at risk, I think, of slipping back from trying to hit that target of having no more new cases of HIV in Wales by 2030. My party had suggested that we could be aiming even higher and looking at 2026, something that the Terrence Higgins Trust had welcomed. Even 2030 started to look out of our reach. But I hope that this report will bring us back on track, as it were, and that we will certainly be able to aim towards that target.
There are a number of elements of the work that will be done, or is being recommended, that are eye-catching to me, specifically the creation of Wales as a Fast Track Nation. Some good work has been done, led in Cardiff and Vale, and I do know that other parts of Wales, north Wales, for example, have been very keen to make progress with work of this kind. I wonder whether I could have more details from the Minister on the capacity that she wishes to see built for implementing this Fast Track Nation ambition. The hope, I know, in north Wales was that there would be resources available to ensure that there was an individual who could lead this work, who would be employed to push the boundaries of what can be delivered in north Wales. I wonder whether there's any more meat on the bone in terms of the kind of resources that we could expect to see and how those resources could be used on the ground.
I will briefly cover the issue of stigma. I'm pleased to see such an emphasis placed on the need to tackle stigma. We know how much of a problem this was back in the 1980s, as was demonstrated by that excellent series It's A Sin, and it's shocking to think of the stigma that existed then. But that stigma is still there, I see it with my work on the cross-party group on infected blood, where those who are HIV positive still experience stigma. So, I welcome that commitment.
I will draw the Minister's attention to some research that's been done recently on stigma even for those people who take PrEP. Now, can I have an assurance that tackling stigma will go back even to that point so that people who do take PrEP don't need to be concerned that they will experience stigma for trying to prevent HIV infection in the first place?
And one very specific question—and forgive me if the answer is in the report, I haven't had an opportunity to go through it in detail as of yet—PrEP has been available through sexual health clinics, and there have been calls for ensuring that it is available through community pharmacy, for example, and that, in a way, would be a means of tackling stigma, because it's possible that some people wouldn't want to go to sexual health clinics in order to access this treatment. So, I wonder whether there is a change of direction in terms of policy in that regard so that it can be accessed more easily.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much, and, of course, we want to see and ensure that we do reach that target by 2030, and, if we can do it more quickly, then certainly I'd like to see that as well. It depends to what extent the public comes with us on this journey. One of the reasons, and one of the things that I hope will emerge from the fact that we are giving this such great attention today and over the coming months, is to raise awareness in terms of the fact that things have changed and that new medicines are available, which mean that we can get rid of the stigma. We can get rid of the idea of that someone with HIV's life is at risk. It's not. They can get treatment, and certainly in terms of the stigma—

Eluned Morgan AC: I think it's really important that people who are taking PrEP—of course, they shouldn't face any stigma, and of course we will ensure that that is the case. But the way to do this is to bring the public with us, and I am very, very keen to make sure that we raise public awareness of the fact that the world has moved on a huge amount since the 1980s, and people who receive that antiretroviral therapy can and do live long and healthy lives, and the viral load in their blood is reduced so significantly it means that they can't transmit it to their sexual partners. It's really important that that message gets across, and we mustn't be scared of saying that out loud.

Eluned Morgan AC: Certainly, in terms of a Fast Track Nation, I think there are great models here in Wales already, and certainly the model here in Cardiff and the Vale has been vital. I do hope that we will see those models developing across Wales ultimately. Of course, it makes sense to target some areas more quickly than others, but what I do hope in terms of resources is that health boards on the ground will make the difference and that they take responsibility. It's important that we don't do everything centrally. There is additional funding, but they have to take responsibility. If this doesn't work, the problems will come to the health boards ultimately anyway, so it makes sense for them to target this quickly as well.

Buffy Williams MS: Diolch to the Minister for today's statement. Having worked closely with the Terrence Higgins Trust and Fast Track Cardiff & Vale, I know that today's statement is welcome news to all the charities and organisations who have pulled together to help create the HIV action plan. Access to data when it comes to HIV and STIs in Wales is really very difficult and needs improving. A new data surveillance system is desperately needed. From the figures I was able to obtain, there are approximately 2,800 people living in Wales accessing care for HIV, and, in 2021, 1,303 people were prescribed PrEP through NHS services. Ninety-nine per cent of those receiving PrEP are men, which is fantastic and has been a real game-changer. But my anxiety is that this isn't on the radar of the majority of women in Wales. We have a real opportunity to create a culture where women feature front and centre in team Wales's response to HIV, where we are offering HIV tests on a routine basis to women, where no woman leaves a sexual health clinic without being given the choice of a HIV test, where all women are aware of the HIV prevention drug PrEP and can make informed decisions about whether it is suitable for them, and where women living with HIV are included in research efforts and supported to have the best quality of life possible. Will the Minister make sure that the HIV action plan works for women also?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much, Buffy. I think it's really important, the point that you make, because we know that HIV affects men, women, trans people, all kinds of people, and I think it's really important that we recognise that and we say that, again, out loud. That's why we've ensured that this plan is very inclusive and that no-one is left behind. What we find is that women are generally more comfortable getting engaged either with their GP or with the sexual health services for their sexual health needs, whether that's for contraceptive care or for a sexual health screening. Now, we recognise that there is a small minority of women who haven't engaged with these services, and we hope that the online testing services may be a mechanism through which those women who perhaps are more reluctant to come forward to have a face-to-face test with their GP or their sexual health clinic can do so in a different way. I do think that, actually, the pandemic has been transformative in that sense and has led to an increase in testing. I think the other thing, of course, is that women quite often get tested when they have antenatal testing. So, there are 48 new diagnoses in Wales, and, of these, around 10 of them were identified as female. So, it's really important that people bear in mind that women absolutely get HIV as well.

Finally, Altaf Hussain.

Altaf Hussain AS: Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer, and thank you, Minister, for this action plan. HIV home tests are available throughout Wales, with the tests being posted to a laboratory, and the person will receive their results usually in around 72 hours.
There is, however, an alternative test available, which allows a person to test themselves at home and receive their results in around 15 minutes. Waiting for an HIV result can be terrifying, and some people don't feel comfortable visiting a clinic, for a number of reasons. These 15-miniute tests are around £15, but, according to the Higgins trust, these tests are free in certain parts of England and Scotland where it is locally funded. With the current cost-of-living crisis, for some people, especially those in lower income categories, these can be unaffordable. The mental stress HIV can cause is truly awful. Will the Welsh Government consider funding a scheme in Wales that will allow people to access a free 15-minute home test, as this could encourage some more testing as people can test themselves discreetly without the added stress of visiting their local clinic, waiting days for a result, and the fear of judgment and stigmatisation? Sorry, my throat is bad.

[Inaudible.]

Altaf Hussain AS: Thank you.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you, Altaf. Certainly, we're aware that that opportunity to do online tests and make sure that you get those delivered to home—I think that does open a new opportunity. In terms of the 15-minute tests, obviously, if people come back to us on that in the consultation, then that's something we'll have to consider.
You suggest that HIV testing can be terrifying. I don't think it's as terrifying as it used to be, because we know there are things we can do if you do have HIV. And again, lets get back to just keep on repeating that—HIV, you can now get help for it and live a normal life. And that is the message we absolutely need to give. Free HIV testing is already, of course, available in Wales, and will continue to be, certainly as we roll out this programme.

Thank you, Minister.

6. Statement by the Minister for Climate Change: Building Safety Update

The next statement has been withdrawn.

7. Statement by the Minister for Social Justice: Update on Ukraine

So, we will move on to item 7, a statement by the Minister for Social Justice, an update on Ukraine, and I call on the Minister, Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd, for giving us another opportunity to provide an update to Members about our ongoing work to support people from Ukraine seeking sanctuary in Wales. When I last updated you almost a month ago, Wales had welcomed just over 1,120 Ukrainians under the Homes for Ukraine scheme, including under our supersponsor route, and I'm pleased to say this number has nearly doubled since then. Almost 2,200 people from Ukraine, sponsored by people from Wales, had arrived in the UK by 7 June. There have also been arrivals, of course, under the Ukraine family scheme, but the UK Government does not provide that data.
More than 5,200 visas have now been granted to people from Ukraine who have sponsors in Wales, so we can expect the number of arrivals to continue to grow quickly in the coming weeks. Our partners in local government, the NHS, the third sector, volunteers and, of course, all those people who are acting as sponsors are making phenomenal efforts to support sanctuary seekers with the services and information they need. The Minister for Finance and Local Government and I met with local authority leaders and chief executives last week to restate our shared commitment to this work following the election.
Last week, I announced that we would be temporarily pausing our supersponsor scheme for the rest of this month. The supersponsor route has been an enormous success since its launch eight weeks ago. We set out to sponsor 1,000 people and it has far exceeded our expectations. The published data for Wales, up to 7 June 2022, shows that over 3,000 supersponsor scheme visas have been granted, but operational data suggests that that could now be as much as 50 per cent higher.
We set up the supersponsor route because we wanted to reduce the safeguarding risks and reduce barriers for people from Ukraine, mostly women and children, who are fleeing this deadly conflict and seeking sanctuary. Last week I visited one of our welcome centres, alongside the Counsel General, and it was a real pleasure to see the positive impact of this work in action.
As part of marking Refugee Week next week, the First Minister and I also intend to visit another of our centres. We have set up and funded the welcome centres, with their wraparound support, to accommodate our initial commitment of 1,000 people. Our current welcome centres are at capacity, and we are urgently seeking to establish further centres and other sources of temporary accommodation. We are pleased that we can provide a route to sanctuary for so many, but it is a huge challenge for us to ensure that we can scale our offer to support everyone arriving.
It would be wholly irresponsible for us to keep this route open unless we were confident that we have everything in place to ensure everyone we sponsor has a good-quality experience when they arrive in Wales. This temporary, operational pause will provide us and our partners with a short space of time to ensure all our processes and services are in place to support everyone we have made commitments to. Being a nation of sanctuary is about ensuring that we are able to make good on the promises we have made to people who want to come to Wales. We fully expect to reopen the scheme for applications next month. I will update you again when we complete our review at the end of June.
We continue to work closely with local government and others, particularly the third sector, to ensure everyone arriving and staying in the welcome centres is supported as they begin to settle into life in Wales. Housing options for Ukrainian refugees are being planned with partners in the public and private rented sector. We do not want people to stay in the welcome centres for longer than necessary. We have contacted everyone in Wales who's expressed an interest in hosting someone from Ukraine but has not yet been matched. Local authorities are undertaking property and safeguarding checks daily.
Dirprwy Lywydd, we are working closely and relying on the third sector's expertise and experience in supporting people seeking sanctuary. People arriving from Ukraine are likely to need a range of support, including advice and advocacy, as they settle into life in Wales. Our contact centre, which I visited recently, has now made approximately 21,000 outbound calls and answered over 2,000 incoming calls, providing essential information and advice to Ukrainians and Wales-based sponsors. We will also be extending our Wales sanctuary service, led by Welsh Refugee Council, to ensure that Ukrainians have access to this vital service. Within the service we will ensure provision of peer support opportunities, immigration legal advice, casework advice services and advocacy.
We are incredibly grateful to all of those who have opened up their homes. We have regularly updated our guidance for sponsors, and we are working with Housing Justice Cymru to make information sessions, training and trauma-informed peer support more widely available.
In my regular meetings with the UK Minister for Refugees, I continue to make the case for parity of funding to support people arriving under the Ukraine family scheme. The UK Government is yet to agree to this. Here too, we are working closely with third sector partners to make wraparound support available for all those families who have been reunited via the Ukraine family scheme, and need support. We are finalising the details.
We will also ensure that 'thank you' payments are made to secondary hosts, where Ukraine family scheme accommodations break down. I urge the UK Government to properly support this work.
Finally, Dirprwy Lywydd, we are holding a series of workshops to engage third sector organisations about the challenges that Ukrainians will be experiencing across Wales. We are working as quickly as we can to ensure people can access all the services they need, from interpretation to language tuition, casework support or health services, but some of this will continue to take time to build up capacity. This is a real Team Wales effort to be proud of.

Mark Isherwood AC: In your written statement update on the Homes for Ukraine scheme last Wednesday, you referred to the latest UK Government figures then, which stated that as of 30 May, 4,909 visas had been issued to people from Ukraine with a sponsor in Wales, which was up 1,609 in three weeks, of which 2,453 were sponsored by the Welsh Government, up 1,453 in just three weeks. You stated then that 1,961 people with sponsors had now arrived in Wales, in addition to those arriving under the Ukraine family scheme. If I repeat the question I always put to you in these statements: what therefore is your understanding of how many have arrived in Wales in total so far, under both schemes, or is that data still unavailable? And what further specific discussions have you had with the UK Minister for Refugees about the reasons for the narrowing but continuing gap between numbers of visas issued and the total arrivals, and action being taken to further address this?
As you know, I've spoken in this Chamber on several occasions of Haven of Light's work with Link International on the Ukrainian response in north Wales. I first highlighted this to you in the Chamber on 15 March, when I stated,
'They're being established by a team of local professionals and partnering third sector organisations and churches across north Wales, working from a central hub in Llandudno, to prepare for the arrival of Ukrainian nationals and others affected by the war who will come to north Wales in the weeks and months ahead.'
I asked you:
'How will the Welsh Government support these vital initiatives and facilitate local authority engagement with them?'
I was therefore pleased to receive an e-mail earlier this month from Ali Ussery, Haven of Light, stating that both she and Reverend Tim Hall, from the charity Link International, sit on the external stakeholder group with you. And Ali added,
'As you know, I always focus my work at grass-roots level, meeting with the people and letting them lead.'
She invited me to a barbecue with a focus on Ukrainian families now living in Conwy county, which I'll be attending. Will you therefore provide us with an update on the work of the external stakeholder group, particularly with people at grass-roots level across Wales? Ali told me that 100 Ukrainians came and spent the day together, informally meeting, sharing experiences, weeping, laughing and playing at their last event, adding that it was an amazing time to see so many children having fun and talking with others in their own language.
Responding to your update on Ukraine statement six weeks ago, I asked how you were working with ministerial colleagues to ensure that school places and local GP and NHS services are available to Ukrainian refugees when they arrive in Wales. You responded stating,
'It's crucial in terms of education that children can obtain admission to schools, and, indeed, also, I have to say, to the health service, to their GPs, to the health checks that are under way. This is monitored on a daily basis.'
Responding to you four weeks ago, I referred to the constituent who had contacted me stating that a Ukrainian refugee family was arriving the following morning under the Homes for Ukraine scheme, who had been told by the local authority's school admissions that the family's primary school-age child could not start education until she had a medical from the GP, and by the GP they had registered the family with that they refused to do a medical, knew nothing of this requirement and did not have the capacity. I thanked you for your prompt response, in which you stated that officials were following up with the admissions officer in the local authority to confirm that, providing the child is well, they do not need to wait for a health assessment to attend the school and that, regarding the position relayed to the family from the GP practice, you had asked health officials to follow up on that with the health board as a matter of urgency. I therefore concluded by asking how you therefore are working with colleagues to ensure that this capacity issue is addressed and, finally, how you would now ensure that local authorities and health services across Wales understand your expectations of them. To what extent, therefore, is your temporary pause of the Welsh Government's supersponsor scheme dictated by a shortage of accommodation, and to what extent by restrictions to the limited availability of services, including school placements and health provision? Can this realistically be addressed and, if so, when by and how?
And my final question, given your reference to accommodation: at the St David's parliamentary prayer breakfast for Wales on 3 March, I sat next to a person who is working with the Ministry of Defence to develop temporary quality accommodation for Ukrainian refugees arriving in the UK. In the circumstances you describe, what discussions have you had or could you have with the MOD regarding Wales accessing that potential source of quality, albeit temporary, housing?

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Mark Isherwood. Thank you very much for all your very helpful questions. Obviously, every time we meet, there are new figures—new figures to update from last week, when I issued my written statement. But, just to update you, as of 14 June, in terms of submitted applications to Wales, 4,017; confirmed applications, 3,293; visas issued, 2,699; estimated arrivals, 1,717. Now, those are for the individuals sponsored—those who are matching with a sponsor, the individual route as part of Homes for Ukraine.

Jane Hutt AC: So, if we turn to our supersponsor route, which is the route that we are pausing just for these few weeks, we actually had 6,016 submitted applications. They transferred into 4,808 confirmed applications, and 3,435 visas have been issued under our supersponsor scheme. I've said already that the welcome centres are at capacity. The estimated arrivals, as of 14 June, under our supersponsor scheme is 759. In fact, when the Counsel General and I visited the welcome centre last week, it was virtually full then, and they said they were expecting arrivals at the weekend, and it would then be full. But by the end of weekend, all our welcome centres were full. In fact, over 100 people arrived over the weekend, and 100 more were confirmed to travel between Monday and Friday this week.
So, now we've got over 6,000 applications in the system, with around 4,700 confirmed applications, and an estimation, as we said right from the word 'go', that we would be able to provide accommodation for up to 1,000 people. So, this is where we have got to make sure that we can not only support those who are in the system, because everyone who was in the system up until Friday, we were going to progress their applications for the supersponsor route to welcome centres. Everyone else, of course, will continue. Those who are coming under the individual sponsor, Homes for Ukraine sponsor scheme, they were also arriving as well, so there has been—.
It's good, in a sense, your question about gaps between visa approvals and arrivals. That gap has narrowed. I've raised it every time I've met with Lord Harrington, and indeed my colleague from Scotland, Neil Gray, the Minister, these issues, but that has become less of an issue because that gap has reduced. So, that's just the latest update, and I will be updating you on figures as we move through.
I just want to say something about Haven of Light, and the fact that you introduced me to them very early on back in February. Their experience, their expertise, their care and commitment is just tremendous. I've met them on a number of occasions. They're absolutely committed. They're particularly concerned about safeguarding. They've got a lot of experience about sexual exploitation, trafficking. They want to ensure that people are safe and supported, and I'm very pleased to say that Reverend Tim Hall and colleagues sit on the external group that I chair.
But I have given you quite a bit of information in my statement—I won't repeat it all, but you can see—about the work we're doing with the third sector to make sure that we can have specialist support, some funding going out to some organisations like the Welsh Refugee Council. The Red Cross are playing a hugely important role. They were there at the welcome centre we visited last week. They're all playing a key role, but the wonderful events that are being held across Wales, the support that's been given to families and households.
I'll just quickly say on education, yes, we have been very clear about all children living in Wales having a right to access a school, and we have that guidance on school admissions applications on the Schools of Sanctuary website. Local authorities have all played their part to help with the difficulty in many cases where there hasn't been capacity. That has been an issue, but local authorities are looking at ways in which they can address that capacity in terms of class sizes. It has been a challenge in some areas, but I'm very pleased that, last Thursday, the Minister for Finance and Local Government and I met with all the new leaders. We met on that occasion specifically with housing cabinet members, because I will go on to your next point.
What we need to do is make sure that people can move on from our welcome centres. Some will go to host families, and others will go into more permanent accommodation for the time that they're going to spend in Wales. We're looking at all other opportunities beyond the five centres that we've got, and we've got another one opening shortly. So, thank you again for raising that. I did feed back about the MOD contact you had from the St David's prayer breakfast, and I'll follow that up as well.

Sioned Williams MS: Thank you for the statement, Minister. It's concerning, of course, that the supersponsor scheme has had to be temporarily paused, because we know that this was a scheme where we can best guarantee that the needs of refugees are met, and that their safety and well-being are safeguarded. We understand and also appreciate the need to ensure that the appropriate support is available and that pausing the scheme to resolve any problems is a responsible thing to do. But from what we've heard from local authorities who have welcome centres in their areas, there is a very real problem that has arisen because there is a lack of accommodation available for those who are ready to move on from the welcome centres. This is perhaps partly because of the pressures on local authority housing stock. We know that the number of homeless people in temporary accommodation is increasing and the lack of permanent housing available for them is a barrier in reducing the number of people in temporary accommodation.
So, can the Minister confirm that a shortage of permanent accommodation is partially responsible for the pause in the supersponsor scheme, and what solutions are being proposed? And how will the Government ensure that local authorities—those who have welcome centres and those who don't—do work together to solve this problem? The aim, of course, is to restart the supersponsor scheme. So, what's the Government doing now in order to ensure that what is provided in the future in the scheme is adequate, and practically possible? Is the Minister confident that the scheme will not need to be paused again? You’ve mentioned that capacity is a cause of concern in the welcome centres, and given these difficulties in finding permanent accommodation for families, what will happen if those who have received a visa under the supersponsor scheme do arrive whilst the scheme is paused? Where will they go?
A number of press reports over recent weeks have mentioned refugees facing major difficulties and some now having been made homeless as arrangements break down, either because of a failure in the relationship between the host and the individual, or issues around inappropriate accommodation being offered, and then local authorities having to step into the breach to support these people. Are such cases monitored by Government, and if so, what's the picture here in Wales? And what plans are in place to find permanent accommodation for those refugees that have been sponsored by families once their six-month period of accommodation comes to an end, and those who have offered their homes are unable or don't want to extend that period? Bearing in mind that funding isn't provided, as you mentioned, by the Westminster Government to support the Welsh Government's supersponsor scheme, can the Minister tell us what the impact of this is on the programme, now that many weeks have passed?
I've raised in the past concerns about the lack of mental health support and specialist trauma services for those who have fled Ukraine. Charities report that needs are getting worse, given how the conflict has developed. So, what additional specialist provision is in place for those seeking sanctuary here in Wales under the various sponsorship schemes? Given that the numbers of people are increasing, as you've noted, has the Government reviewed the adequacy of the services available? And has it responded to any gaps or issues around capacity in order to ensure that the refugees arriving in Wales, and who need such support, are properly supported? Thank you.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Sioned Williams. Thank you for acknowledging the huge challenge, but also the responsibilities that we have to get this right in terms of the way in which we provide our support. As I said in my statement on the supersponsor scheme, we developed it as the safest route for our refugees from Ukraine, but, as you will appreciate, even from the latest figures, we now have, in fact, 3,435 visas issued under that supersponsor scheme, and we want to make sure that we can accommodate. They won't necessarily all come anyway in terms of turning into arrivals, as outlined in the earlier question, because some of them have ticked more than one box in terms of which route they come through. But, clearly, we have a commitment to meet that need. Anyone who was actually in the system by Friday, when the scheme was paused, those are all progressing, those applications. It's just that you couldn't tick that box from Friday in terms of the supersponsor route. So, that would apply to new applicants, but they might well have ticked the other box in terms of being able to come through the individual sponsor scheme. But we will reopen that as quickly as possible—I've said this month. We will reopen that, and I will come back to the Senedd to update you on this.

Jane Hutt AC: I just want to particularly look at the issues for local authorities that you've raised, because this has been a real challenge for them in terms of housing and how we can support them. In terms of homelessness, the use of temporary accommodation at the moment is quite considerable, and so meeting with the local authority leaders on Thursday was very important. That's why we also met with cabinet members—new cabinet members, new leaders, as well as existing ones coming back into their roles. We agreed a pan-Wales response. All local authorities have to play their part. That includes those who haven't got welcome centres, as you say, Sioned. We've got a framework for accommodation, which sets out expectations for all local authorities, and it provides information on the formula for that responsibility. We're working very closely with the WLGA, monitoring where people have been rehoused, and also making sure that there's a mixture of accommodation available—individual hosting, private rented sector, RSLs are now involved, and social housing.
I've mentioned pressures on local authorities, and this is part of our nation of sanctuary. We already have some Afghan families not yet settled into long-term accommodation. We have over 7,300 people in Wales in temporary accommodation. We do need to be flexible and creative about how we can help local authorities. On Thursday, we were able to tell local authorities that we've got a new transitional accommodation capital programme. Local authorities can apply to that to increase their accommodation to support existing housing pressures, alongside the Ukrainian response. And, obviously, we have homelessness prevention work ongoing—it's the 'everyone in' approach—as well as the resettlement programme. I hope that gives you some reassurance that we're seeking to support this the best we can in terms of the needs that we've got.
There are breakdowns of placements. For the family scheme, which we don't have the data on, and we have no funding for, we still do not know how many we have in Wales unless they come forward, but they are actually contacting local authorities when there's a breakdown, and they are incorporated into this framework for accommodation guidance, and then making sure that there is a rematching arrangement. Of course, we do have our Welsh Government helpline. As I said, I visited it. It's 24/7. They're working very hard to meet some of these needs that emerge as a result of the pressures on local authorities and their arrangements.
Finally, I would say, in terms of the funding situation, that the Welsh Government is putting our money into this. We are a nation of sanctuary, and we're very concerned that the UK Government isn't providing Welsh Government with the funds needed to operate our welcome centres. But we are working with them to try and establish a memorandum of understanding to get funding towards the support needed for Ukrainian families via the supersponsor programme, and I can update you on that. I think it is important that we continue to press on this, as I meet on a regular basis. I hope that this has given you some indication of what the task is for local authorities, communities, sponsors—all the new sponsors coming forward—and the third sector. We're looking at new opportunities for more welcome centres, but even with more welcome centres, there needs to be a move-on arrangement.
Mental health support is crucially important. I'll just say that, in the welcome centre that I visited, the local authority and the health board met with us, and they had a team of four nurses who were there providing support, including a mental health, trauma-informed approach to psychological first aid. They were engaging and they had translators and interpreters, so there was a clear commitment with that welcome centre. But this is also for all the families who are sponsors; they also need access to psychological services as well. This is an enormous new ask of all our services, particularly in relation to mental health and support.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Jayne Bryant AC: Thank you, Minister, for that important update. The experiences of those surviving and fighting within the worst-hit regions in Ukraine are really harrowing and traumatising. I just want to raise the issue around mental health, because, with so many of their relatives now residing here in Wales, it's sadly inevitable that the brutal realities of war are going to impact those who are now safe in our country. I have had correspondence from one constituent who is hosting a refugee from Ukraine. Last month, her son was horrifically injured due to a land mine, and if he survives, he'll be scarred for life. She's distraught about this; she's so distraught that she's so far away and unable to help the one she loves. Her host family are doing everything they can to console and help her and have even arranged for money to be sent over to help pay for his surgery. The longer the war goes on, the more refugees will be impacted, as their friends and family who remain in Ukraine are caught up in the brutality of the events. So, what emotional and mental health support are we able to give to Ukrainians and their host families—you mentioned in particular the welcome centre—so that when that worst news does arrive, we're ensuring that help is there in all forms when people need it the most?

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much, Jayne Bryant. I think we'll all be profoundly moved by the report of that experience from a sponsor family and how desperate they must feel, and the distance, the loss, the fear and isolation of not being able to be there for their family. This is what the war is about; it's not in the headlines all the time, but this is happening now, as we speak here today. When we visited the welcome centre last week, we realised the trauma that people had suffered. You can't just wipe that and say it's about a housing solution or education. I mean, obviously, all of these things help provide a support system, which we want to do for everyone. You know that every family, as they come, are encouraged to register with a GP—that can include mental health services. This is actually, also, about the importance, as I've said, of providing emotional and mental health support, because this has been given parity, as we've seen from the experiences of people coming under the supersponsor scheme and those arriving through the family sponsor route.
Particularly for welcome centres, I've mentioned that we're looking at this in terms of our approach. We're getting support from people like Traumatic Stress Wales, the Royal College of Psychiatrists, and Public Health Wales are developing materials. There's a guidance document focusing on support for displaced people in Wales in private accommodation. They've all been translated into Ukrainian and Russian. But we've also got the CALL mental health helpline, which is able to use LanguageLine. As I said, there's guidance for health boards anyway on the health and well-being of asylum seekers and refugees, but there's Mind Cymru and all those local support schemes as well.
I'll just show Members; this is the pack that is given to everyone in our welcome centres, and I was just asking my colleague who came with me, Mick Antoniw, what the translation was: 'Laskavo prosymo, pryvit', which is 'welcome'. And this is a pack full of information, translated into Ukrainian and Russian, because that is what they need when they come to our welcome centres and to the families, like the wonderful host family that are supporting the Ukrainian refugee.

Altaf Hussain AS: Minister, thank you very much for this important update. In the Homes for Ukraine guidance—I think that is what you were referring to—little has been mentioned about the long-term protection offered, despite the Welsh Government's willingness to be a supersponsor. The Welsh Government has already recognised the problem of modern slavery here in Wales. Vulnerable people can be exploited by criminal networks and forced into modern slavery. In 2021 there were 479 Welsh referrals for victims of modern slavery—over half were children and around half were from countries like Sudan. As the circumstances for Ukraine refugees arriving in Wales will be similar to those from Sudan, what is the Welsh Government doing to ensure the safety of the Ukrainian refugees under the Modern Slavery Act 2015, once they have been placed? And what information are you providing refugees to ensure they know their rights and how they are protected? Thank you.

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much, Altaf Hussain. Well, we have published dedicated safeguarding and modern slavery guidance. It's on the website, but it's also provided in packs like the ones I've just shown you. And also, guidance to our Welsh public bodies. We've referred to the Ukraine visa schemes, and we've got advice, also, in terms of violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence and online safety. The welcome centres also are crucial in terms of their opportunities to provide information and raise awareness. Welcome centres are displaying gangmaster and labour abuse authority posters as well, to alert Ukrainians to risk of unscrupulous employers and traffickers and providing advice about how Ukrainians can stay safe. And we've set up concerns about modern slavery risks with the UK Government. We've co-ordinated meetings with partner organisations in Wales, such as Safe Haven in north Wales, as well. So, this is very key to the support we're giving to our Ukrainian refugees.

Thank you, Minister.

8. Motion to vary the order of consideration of Stage 3 amendments to the Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Bill

Item 8 is next, the motion to vary the order of consideration of Stage 3 amendments to the Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Bill. I call on the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language to formally move.

Motion NDM8022 Lesley Griffiths
To propose that the Senedd in accordance with Standing Order 26.36:
Agrees to dispose of sections and schedules to the Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Bill at Stage 3 in the following order:
a) Section 1;
b) Schedule 1;
c) Sections 2 – 24;
d) Schedule 2;
e) Sections 25 - 56;
f) Schedule 3;
g) Sections 57 – 144;
h) Schedule 4;
i) Sections 145 - 146;
j) Long Title.

Motion moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Formally move.

I have no speakers to this item, so the proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

9. Debate: Broadcasting

The following amendment has been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Darren Millar.

The next item is the debate on broadcasting, and I call on the Deputy Minister for Arts and Sport to move the motion. Dawn Bowden.

Motion NDM8023 Lesley Griffiths, Siân Gwenllian
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Welcomes the formation of the expert panel which will explore the establishment of a shadow Broadcasting and Communications Authority for Wales.
2. Notes that the Co-operation Agreement between Plaid Cymru and the Welsh Government states their agreement that broadcasting and communications powers should be devolved to the Senedd.

Motion moved.

Dawn Bowden AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I very much welcome the opportunity to talk today about the important work that we are taking forward, through our co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru, to support a broadcasting and communications framework for Wales that is fit for purpose and delivers the media that Wales deserves.
Now, I shouldn't have to convince this Senedd that broadcasting is hugely important in Wales. It plays a crucial role informing, entertaining and educating. It's a vital contributor to the growth of our creative industries, to our economy, to our language, and to our democracy. And if its value was ever in doubt, the unprecedented period of the COVID-19 pandemic has surely only strengthened the case for its continuing relevance.
However, for broadcasting to meet the needs of Wales, its framework must be right. It must be fit for a devolved context and provide us with a strong and compelling voice in any debates on broadcasting issues, and that is not currently the case. Too many times, unilateral decisions taken by the UK Government have demonstrated a complete lack of understanding of devolution and an apparent disregard for the impact of those decisions in Wales, and indeed for public service broadcasting and its founding principles in general. We only have to look at the decisions on the freezing of the licence fee and the planned privatisation of Channel 4 as recent examples of how the UK Government's proposals are risking the invaluable contribution that public service broadcasters make to Wales. There are also numerous examples of misreporting of information and insufficient references to devolved circumstances in broadcast news that highlight the need to take action to address this information deficit in the media.
Now, our co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru recognises the broad consensus in Wales that the current broadcasting and communications framework is inadequate. It recognises that it is not capable of delivering the media Wales needs and it outlines the desire to see powers in this space devolved. So, today I'm pleased to announce the establishment of an expert panel that marks the first step in taking forward action to address the flaws in the current system. We have appointed 12 expert members to the panel, and these individuals will come from a range of backgrounds, including independent production, broadcasting, journalism and academia, and together they bring a wealth of experience that will add value and weight to our discussions in this work.
Now, the panel's work will be guided by and build on the broadcasting and media commitments set out in the co-operation agreement. It will consider a range of issues, including work to explore the establishment of a shadow broadcasting and communications authority for Wales. The panel will also provide an important role as we explore the devolution of powers to Wales, and this is particularly important as we know that this is a challenging and ambitious goal.
A range of factors will need to be understood and considered, not least in terms of the scope of what we hope to achieve and the affordability of any recommended changes to the current regulatory framework. It will be the role of the expert panel to fully consider all the potential opportunities and impacts associated with our options. Their work will be guided by evidence and will require the panel to make informed judgments on factors such as the scope of any remit of any proposed broadcasting authority, on its potential structure, accountability and fit within the regulatory framework.
For any actions to be practical, achievable and achieve the buy-in of our stakeholders, we must develop the strongest business case possible and consider a range of factors, including financial implications and alignment with an increasingly global broadcasting landscape. We also know and understand that if broadcasting is to be devolved, it will require the agreement of the UK Government, so the strength of our case will need to stand up to scrutiny both here and at the UK level—

Alun Davies AC: Will the Minister take an intervention?

Dawn Bowden AC: Indeed.

Alun Davies AC: I appreciate the points that you've been making in your opening contribution, but, of course, you say there is a coalition of support for these matters. The Labour Party isn't a part of that coalition. As far as I'm aware, the policy of Welsh Labour is not to devolve broadcasting.

Dawn Bowden AC: The policy of Welsh Labour is yet to be developed in this area, but this is very much part of the co-operation agreement between Welsh Government and Plaid Cymru that was necessary for a range of issues that we needed to deliver the programme for government. So, that is something that we are still developing.
In terms of the scrutiny, as I said, it's got to stand up to scrutiny both here and at UK level, so it will be essential that we do continue to engage with that range of relevant stakeholders, experts and partners, alongside the work of the panel, to identify that robust and credible evidence base to take forward the actions. So, Llywydd, today I just thank you very much for the opportunity to take part in this debate, and I look forward to hearing the contribution of other Members and what they have to say this afternoon. Diolch yn fawr.

I have selected the amendment to the motion and I call on Tom Giffard to move that amendment, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Tom Giffard.

Amendment 1—Darren Millar
Delete point 1.

Amendment 1 moved.

Tom Giffard AS: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd, and I'd like to formally move the amendment in the name of my colleague and friend Darren Millar. [Interruption.] Any time.
What we're seeing here today, Llywydd, is yet another commission being set up by the Welsh Government to look at an issue that it's already made its mind up on. Last week it was more MSs, and this week it's another commission. The Cardiff Bay gravy train really does keep going for the friends of the Labour Party—[Interruption.] We've heard you already, Alun—[Interruption.] No, thank you, Alun. No, thank you, Alun. I've heard you once already.
Having looked this morning at the backgrounds and the social media feeds of the individuals that have been appointed to the committee, it seems a number of them have only one thing in common: an opposition to the UK Government. It isn't a balanced committee with a range of views, it's essentially a left-wing think tank that takes its ideas and its members firmly from within the Cardiff Bay bubble, and we should treat the inevitable findings with that in mind.
I noticed this morning Plaid Cymru tweeting, 'Breaking news: power over Welsh broadcasting a step closer', but it isn't closer at all. As we've just heard from Alun Davies and the Deputy Minister, we know that the Labour Party will not devolve that power—bad news for Plaid Cymru on that. Their general election manifesto—[Interruption.] We know that power currently resides with the UK Government. We know Labour's 2019 manifesto said, and I quote,
'A Labour government will ensure a healthy future for all our public service broadcasters, including BBC Alba and S4C.'
That doesn't sound to me like a Labour Government that would be particularly keen on devolving that power either. Maybe the Labour Party would be better advised to spend a bit of time agreeing a position within their own party than wasting taxpayers' money on this commission.
We know that the devolution of broadcasting is simply a bad idea. What is the purpose? What are we trying to fix? Those aren't my words, they're the words of the director of BBC Wales, Rhodri Talfan Davies, when discussing broadcasting in the previous Senedd's culture committee. Phil Henfrey, the head of news and programmes for ITV Wales, told the same committee that the debate about devolving powers over broadcasting risked overlooking the appeal of UK programming to Welsh audiences.
I heard earlier today the First Minister, in an answer to Adam Price, talking up the merits of listening to the experts. This isn't the Welsh Government listening to the experts on broadcasting, it's a Welsh Government that has a devolve now and worry about the details later approach. And it's true, because they have no plan about what they would actually do with the powers if they got devolved. It can't be clearer than in the statement that we just heard from the Deputy Minister, where she referred to the licence fee freeze and Channel 4 privatisation. But there's nothing today to suggest any of it would be different if it were devolved. Would the Welsh Government look to reverse the privatisation of Channel 4? Would it look to keep taxpayers paying licence fees when the rest of the UK wouldn't be? [Interruption.] It would? Well, it's good to know that Welsh citizens would be—. Well, it's an interesting update from the backbenches of the Labour Party to hear that if UK taxpayers were not paying licence fees, Welsh taxpayers would still continue to if that power were to be devolved. Orwould none of it come to fruition and we'd just keep doing the same things because the Welsh Government loves nothing more than to hoard powers just to do nothing with them?
Broadcasting in Wales under the control of the UK Government has been a success story. Take S4C, for example, securing an extra £7.5 million from the UK Government to boost its digital output and supporting the channel to reach wider audiences, showcasing our Welsh language to even more people. The UK Government's White Paper on broadcasting reforms—

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Will you take an intervention?

Tom Giffard AS: Of course.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Firstly, where's the equivalent support for radio in Wales, which is equally as important as television? Secondly, where is the support for English language programming for Wales? We used to have one. We used to have a channel called BBC Choice, BBC 2W, which I had the pleasure of contributing to at times. Where is the English language broadcasting platform that only a Welsh Parliament would deliver?

Tom Giffard AS: It's interesting you say that. I'm not sure that a Welsh Parliament would deliver that, and we've not seen any of that evidence today. I know you've got an extensive background in the BBC, but we've not seen that today. All we've seen today is the setting up of a commission that has already decided what it's going to report before it's started.
The UK Government's White Paper on broadcasting reforms, which includes the removal of certain restrictions, will mean that S4C will be able to reach people all across the UK. There's a big wide world out there, and even further afield, and its on-demand service will be even more accessible again. We need to look beyond our own borders. I know it's an alien concept to Plaid Cymru, but there is a world outside Wales, and this White Paper gives S4C, and more importantly the Welsh language, an opportunity to be heard and seen by a much wider audience.
And a final issue: it's estimated by the BBC that £184 million is raised in Wales out of a total UK figure of £3.7 billion. In 2018-19 S4C received £74.5 million of licence fee-generated funding. This puts the total licence fee-generated spend in Wales at £253.5 million—nearly £70 million more than the BBC estimated is raised in Wales. This demonstrates that Wales receives far more in funding from the licence fee, again to the tune of nearly £70 million extra, than it generates itself in Wales. The question that then follows is this: where does the difference in the money come from if this power were to be devolved? One suggestion—and I am wrapping up, Llywydd—from Glasgow Caledonian University's Professor David Hutchison, was that, and I quote,
'it would still be necessary to face the fact that, as there would have to be payment to the UK BBC for common services, then the licence fee in Wales—as in Scotland—might have to be significantly higher than it currently is.'
Would devolution change that situation? Surely, given that families are struggling with surging gas and electric prices, to burden them with significantly higher licence fees is another example of this Welsh Government chasing powers regardless of the cost.

Heledd Fychan AS: I'm not sure where to start with that.

Heledd Fychan AS: What are we trying to fix? A democratic deficit. I do not believe we should go cap in hand to the UK Government in terms of the future of broadcasting and the media here in Wales. We should not have to ask for permission to have content in our own official languages here in Wales. We have seen cut after cut to S4C, and yet we are supposed to be grateful because they have now pledged. We do not know what the impact of the future of the BBC and what's being considered by the UK Government will have on broadcasting here in Wales. I certainly do not trust a UK Tory Government to protect our broadcasting and media.

Heledd Fychan AS: For decades, Plaid Cymru has campaigned for the devolution of broadcasting and communications powers to Wales. Today's announcement is therefore an important and historic moment as we move a step closer to this following the formation of the expert panel. In fact, we can trace this struggle back to the 1970s, before some of us here today were born, with calls from Plaid Cymru and Cymdeithas yr Iaithfor a Welsh-language television service, and then, of course, Gwynfor Evans's campaign for a Welsh-language television channel, where he threatened to go on hunger strike if the Government of Margaret Thatcher did not establish a channel.
After all, we have our own sports teams, our own national organisations, including our own Parliament, our own language, and it also makes sense for us to be responsible for broadcasting and communications. And I'm pleased to see the Government, as a result of the co-operation agreement, now supporting this, and I note the points made by Alun Davies that the Labour Party is not united on it, but I am pleased to see that we can co-operate and see value in this through the agreement.
Why is it important to devolve broadcasting? Well, media deficiencies are causing knowledge gaps in Wales, and devolving broadcasting and establishing this panel would help to close that gap. In 2016, only 37 per cent of people in Wales were watching BBC Wales Today and 17 per cent were watching ITV Wales at Six. With so many of our nation's people receiving British news rather than indigenous news, this creates a democratic deficit and a deficit of political awareness. Indeed, a study by Cardiff University and YouGov found that 40 per cent of people in Wales wrongly believed that Plaid Cymru was in Government between 2011 and 2016. Obviously, I wish that that had been the case, but isn't it really worrying that 40 per cent of the populace at the time didn't know which party was responsible for decisions that affected their day-to-day lives so much?
This deficit brings further consequences for the people of Wales. The 'Joint NGO Shadow Report on Racial Inequality in Wales' in 2021 said the following, and I quote:
'as Wales does not have a strong independent media identity, the English press agenda will often be echoed in Wales. The English media's coverage of migrants and refugees is of particular concern, with divisive and inflammatory language such as "swarming" and "invasion" used to refer to those seeking asylum in the UK. More recently, in 2020, BBC and Sky News received over 8,000 complaints after broadcasting migrants crossing the English Channel live. Labour MP Zarah Sultana responded: "we should ensure people don't drown crossing the Channel, not film them as if it were some grotesque reality TV show."
'Thus, we argue that the English media's coverage of migrants and refugees in recent years is not only concerning as it is divisive, inflammatory, and inhumane, but that it also contravenes W/Government's stance on migration as a "Nation of Sanctuary".'
This shows, therefore, how the fact that communications and broadcasting are not devolved undermines our ethos and our goals as a nation.
Of course, some things changed in the wake of COVID. In 2020, BBC Wales Today viewing figures increased to 46 per cent of the population, showing that people had realised, for the first time, perhaps, that important issues such as health and education were the responsibility of the Senedd rather than London. The pandemic therefore demonstrated the importance of providing an indigenous Welsh media to provide information to people living in Wales.
Therefore, I cannot overemphasize why today is indeed a very important day as we make further progress in this area, in order to bring all the potential benefits of devolving broadcasting and communications to Wales. If we want more people to take an interest in our democracy, to scrutinise our decisions, and to vote, then they must have the opportunity to be informed about what is happening here.

Jack Sargeant AC: I do welcome the opportunity today to talk about this very timely debate. I think Welsh broadcasting, in all of its forms, at its best, should tell our national story, and it should reflect the interests and the passions of Wales. This isn't just about politics or news, whilst I do agree they form an important role, but our nation is passionate and proud about pêl-droed, about football, and it wants to engage with its national game. Llywydd, the Welsh women's and men's leagues are growing in popularity, but, if we are to truly build upon this, then the leagues must be broadcast live, free to view, free to listen.
I do want to pay tribute here to our national broadcaster, S4C, because S4C is a long-standing and consistent supporter of the game in Wales, and I think it can certainly be described as the home of Welsh football. The Minister will know I've tabled a number of written questions on this matter, and it is a great privilege to watch Sgorio, to watch the live coverage of the Cymru national team's progress in the World Cup qualifiers, and it is, too, important to note how great it is to watch BBC Wales's live coverage of every match as Cymru's women attempt to qualify for the 2023 World Cup competition, and of course we wish them every success in this Senedd Chamber.
Llywydd, just this past season, S4C has broadcast 47 live matches from the Cymru Premier League and the Welsh national cup competitions. But we should be aspiring to broadcast more each week, and significantly increase the coverage of the women's game. Members will know, and the Llywydd will know, that I will declare an interest here, as I am an unpaid, proud member and club ambassador of the mighty two-time Welsh Premier League champions, Connah's Quay Nomads.
Llywydd, I do support today the spirit of the motion in the establishment of an expert panel, and I do look forward to seeing the detail that will come out of the expert panel, and the proposals of what devolution of broadcasting will mean for our nation. But I do see it as an ideal opportunity to improve broadcasting for our national leagues and our international football. It's my ambition, Minister, to come out of this process and, when the expert panel does publish its detailed proposals, that Welsh league football, both the women's and men's leagues, will be broadcast live—more games, more frequently, free to view, free to listen, in both of our national languages. I'd be grateful if the Minister can update the Chamber on whether she agrees with my ambition, and whether she will commit, today, to putting that ambition to the expert panel and asking them to respond directly to it. Diolch yn fawr.

Samuel Kurtz MS: I'd like to begin by saying how relevant today's motion is, and I thank the Government opposite for giving us the opportunity to debate such an important matter, because, regardless of which side of the debate you're on, I think we can all agree that the quality of Welsh broadcasting, both in English and Welsh, is second to none. Time and time again the BBC, ITV, S4C and production companies such as Tinopolis and Rondo have delivered world-class services and programmes enjoyed here and across the globe. At the very heart of Welsh output, on tv screens across the world, you can find Welsh stars in leading roles, Welsh locations and vistas the unsung heroes, and Welsh talent, from make-up artists to sound technicians and camera operators, part of the integrated fabric that makes Welsh productions of such a high standard. We in Wales can rightly boast of this success, all achieved without the invisible hand of the Welsh Government adjusting the camera lens or Quentin Taran-Drakeford sat in the director's chair. That's what Wales has to offer. And it's clear to me that the devolution of broadcasting serves no purpose to build upon an already thriving industry.
Now, Members will claim that, without its devolution, broadcasting services will be left to suffer and squander, our culture dissipate and our language forgotten, but it couldn't be further from the truth, and the evidence shows that. In the last decade, we've seen both S4C and BBC Wales flourish in a way that has exported Wales, our language, identity and culture across the airwaves. Welsh broadcasting has had so many success stories we should all be proud of. Un Bore Mercher, latterly known as Keeping Faith, initially filmed in Welsh, translated over to English, the three-season thriller, is now filmed in both languages and received over 50 million views on BBC iPlayer;Doctor Who, a world-renowned tv series, filmed right here in Cardiff, bringing science fiction to every television screen, with the voices of Davros Dalek scaring every child of every generation; andY Gwyll/Hinterland, a Welsh noir detective series later adopted by BBC Wales, the first BBC television drama to include dialogue in both English and Welsh.
So, why is it that both Plaid Cymru and the Welsh Government want to stand in the way of such success? Now, of course, we all have a part to play in the future of public service broadcasting, but that part is not one of control, nor influence. We can continue to ensure that public service broadcasters thrive in the future given market changes, but that does not require the control of this Welsh Labour Government or Plaid Cymru. We've seen what happens when the Welsh Government involves itself in an industry it knows little about. Back in 2014, the Welsh Government spent £9.4 million acquiring a disused energy centre at Wentloog with aspirations to develop the site into a film and tv studio. Three years later, the studio was classified as unfit for higher budget film productions. The anticipated demand for the Welsh Government's state-owned film studio failed to materialise. The result: the entire venture was run at a loss, at the expense of the Welsh taxpayer. This is your track record when it comes to broadcasting, and it's certainly—[Interruption.]—it's certainly not an Oscar winner.
The devolution of broadcasting is an important debate to have, let's be sincere, but to reiterate comments made by Rhodri Davies, director of BBC Wales, it is completely unclear what the objective of devolving powers would be, its argument romantic and serving idyllic purposes, whereas Members opposite just seek control, with little regard for the consequences that would inevitably follow. The Government would be best left allowing a thriving industry to continue to flourish. Welsh broadcasting has so much to offer, none of us should be wanting to stand in its way. Diolch.

Cefin Campbell MS: Could I declare an interest as a designated Member who has this as one of my responsibilities as part of the co-operation agreement?
I'm very delighted to be able to contribute to this debate today, a debate that's very important to our democracy as a nation and one that has the potential to be historic, as we prepare the ground for the devolution of broadcasting to Wales. And I don't use the word 'historic' lightly, as we discuss the issue of the devolution of broadcasting. As we've heard from Heledd Fychan, Cymdeithas yr Iaith and Plaid Cymru called for the establishment of an independent broadcasting authority over 50 years ago, and here we are, 50 years later, following decades of protesting and lobbying and campaigning, today, in our own Senedd, taking a step closer to realising the ambition that we set in the 1970s by exploring the possibility of creating a shadow broadcasting and communications authority for Wales, with the aim of creating a solid evidence base to support the case for the devolution of broadcasting powers to Wales in this particular area. And I'd like to thank everyone who has campaigned for this over past decades.
I want to pay tribute also to the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee of the fifth Senedd, and the committee Chair, Bethan Sayed, particularly for the report published in 2021 on the devolution of broadcasting—a report that sets out the challenges but also the potential for strengthening our media in Wales. As Bethan Sayed said in her foreword to the report,
'The supply of media content for Wales is inadequate. We don't have the provision of news and current affairs that Wales needs, hampering the political and civic life of our country.'
This means that
'we do not see ourselves reflected on our screens.'
And that's the point, perhaps, and it may be time for the party opposite to understand that we don't see enough of our own story as Welsh people on our screens at present. And even though there has been growth in global streaming giants such as Netflix and Amazon, which has been seen a lot more on our screens, that doesn't mean that more programmes portray the lives of the people of Wales, never mind the provision through the medium of Welsh.
And as well as today's announcement, and the agreement between Plaid Cymru and the Welsh Government, which hopefully will prepare the way for the devolution of broadcasting, we've also lived through a very difficult period over recent years, a period that will write its own chapter in history books in the future.

Cefin Campbell MS: The pandemic has seen us change our daily habits, including our work, our family lives and our social lives, a period that saw households across Wales tune in to weekly Welsh Government press conferences, eager to know more about the pandemic in Wales and our response to it. The word 'our' is significant here. I believe that it is by no means an exaggeration to say that the COVID-19 pandemic has truly shown the value and vital importance of a strong, independent Welsh media.
We saw glimpses of Wales's potential to achieve this throughout the pandemic, but they were only glimpses. Our media and news outlets were continuously competing and often drowned out by UK-wide, England-focused outlets, pumping England-only information to the whole of the UK, either unaware of or indifferent towards the variations in restrictions and responses to the pandemic by the devolved administrations.
We only have to reference the trumped-up Freedom Day in July last year, with the usual Boris bluster and hyperbole. Despite being urged to make it clear that the lifting of restrictions only applied to England, he refused, meaning that millions of people in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland were left totally confused. This Anglo-centric news and sharing of public information was not only irresponsible and reckless, but also dangerous, as it had a direct impact on people's health, and, possibly, lives.

Cefin Campbell MS: So, to close, in the face of this lack of pluralism and fairness, let us take another step forward today to ensure a healthy and viable democracy in Wales by supporting this motion before us, so that our voice can be heard and our story as a people can be told on the whole range of possible media. Thank you.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Publicly-owned, independent media is critical to our democracy and to the accessibility of unbiased information. The broadcasting sector plays a crucial role informing, entertaining and creating a common cultural citizenship in Wales. Broadcasters are vital contributors to the growth of our economy, to devolution and to the delivery of our ambitions for sustaining and growing the Welsh language. When I see the UK Government creating a hostile environment, planning to sell off Channel 4 in haste, and calls to de-fund the BBC solely for political reasons, it strengthens the case for the devolution of broadcasting to protect its integrity.
The UK Government Minister, Nadine Dorries, appealed to populism regarding the tv licence, but the BBC has long suffered at the hands of the Tories, enduring cuts of 30 per cent since 2010. The decision to sell off Channel 4 for a quick buck goes entirely against what the public want. The consultation on a change of ownership received over 56,000 responses and 96 per cent of them oppose these changes. Their views have been blatantly ignored. Channel 4 plays a unique role in British broadcasting as a company owned by the British public, which costs the public nothing and ploughs its profits into commissioning new programming, creating jobs and discovering new talent across the country. The Tories' decision to privatise Channel 4 shows they are not serious about levelling up our country or supporting British-made programming and our own home-grown creative industries.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Will you take an intervention?

Carolyn Thomas AS: I will.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Do you think that there are potentially ulterior motives in the proposal to sell off Channel 4, and it has more to do with control?

Carolyn Thomas AS: I do indeed, I do indeed.
I know there is a consensus amongst broadcasters in Wales that a new public service media settlement is needed to maintain prominence and sustainability. Prominence is of course of huge importance, given the dominance of social media and smart tvs. Already, the most promoted sources of information online are from the Daily Mail and The Sun—highly biased publications. We need to bring the UK's broadcasting framework into the twenty-first century, ensuring its high-quality content is both easily visible and accessible. To achieve that, we need broadcasting to be overseen by a Government that understands its intrinsic worth.
I know that the Welsh Labour Government understand the value of our great British broadcasters, which provide so much more for our local communities than entertainment. They provide good jobs in communities around the countries and opportunities for the fast-growing creative industries, alongside protecting British culture, values and creative excellence overseas, helping our country to prosper. Diolch.

Gareth Davies AS: It's a pleasure to take part in this debate this afternoon. I've really enjoyed listening to the contributions, even though I don't agree with everything that's been said. I'm also a big tv and radio fan, so it's really good to take part in this this afternoon.
So, a free and open press in the news media is essential for democracy to thrive. One only has to look at what's happening in Russia to understand the risks of media being controlled by the state and the power that has over its citizens: a single voice controlled by the state, used to spread lies to the populace. At the other end of the extreme, we have this situation in the US, where the media landscape is a free-for-all: misinformation is openly broadcast by one or two large corporations that control all the media output across the USA. I think what we need to see is a happy medium, where we have plurality and independence, but regulated by a body independent from the state, much like the media landscape that we have currently in Wales. So, if it's not broke, then why are we trying to fix it? What is the purpose of devolving powers over broadcasting to Wales?
I've listened to the arguments put forward by Labour and Plaid politicians this afternoon, and it's clear as mud what they're trying to achieve. How will giving Welsh Ministers powers over broadcasting improve the Welsh media landscape? I believe it has a real prospect of making it worse. Wales is home to around 4.5 per cent the UK's total population, roughly about 1.3 million households. Even if every one of those households were to pay the licence fee, it still wouldn't be enough to pay for BBC Wales's output and the running of S4C. Because the licence fee is collected from across the UK, Wales can benefit from larger amounts of funding, so we punch well above our weight in that respect.
In the year prior to the pandemic, around a fifth of the UK's independent production budgets was spent in Wales. You only have to look here in Cardiff, and what Sam Kurtz mentioned about the creation of Doctor Whoand Casualty, amongst others that are filmed here. And we get more than our fair share of funding in that sense. So, if Labour and Plaid get their way, they'll no doubt want more funding to follow the increase in powers. And how will the 82 per cent of UK households, i.e. the English licence fee payers, feel about their licence fee going up to fund Welsh broadcasting?
If broadcasting is devolved, what happens to S4C outside of Wales? According to broadcasters in the latest annual report, more than two thirds of the channel's viewership comes from outside our nation, and that's driven in part because of the relationship between S4C and the BBC, and with the use of modern technology such as BBC iPlayer, it's accessible in all parts of UK, as is BBC Alba in Scotland. What will happen to that relationship if broadcasting is devolved to one of the four UK nations? We won't be able to dictate to the other three.
There are also other concerns when it comes to funding. What happens when the Welsh Government decides it has other funding priorities? Say they need more money to fix the mess they have made of the NHS, when the penny finally drops, will S4C or the Welsh broadcasting co-operation even get a look in when it comes to their budgets? I seriously doubt it. There is no rational reason to devolve broadcasting other than to bolster the slow march towards independence. The Welsh public don't support the break-up of the UK, and I'm sure they don't support the break-up of the UK's media landscape. Broadcasting and media production across the UK are facing big enough challenges, and changes in demography and technology are ripping up the old ways of working, so we would be foolish to try going it alone in Wales. [Interruption.] Yes. Sure.

Heledd Fychan AS: Do you not think that the biggest threat to media at present is the UK Government? If you look at what it's doing to the BBC, do you not admit that there is the risk to the future of S4C? Because of what you've outlined, the relationship between S4C and the BBC is crucial, and yet the UK Government is placing that at threat, which is why we need the devolution of broadcasting, so we can protect the future of media here in Wales.

Gareth Davies AS: No, absolutely not, and I think modern technology and the accessibility of S4C, not only in Wales and across the UK, is actually something to be proud of, and the fact that we can actually promote our Welsh language on a wider scale than what we would have been able to do 20, 30 years ago. So, I think you're wrong to say that, really. And I think we have to work together with other parts of the UK, not just work in silos, but work together, and not set nations against each other to compete against one another, which is what will happen if we pursue this ideology of devolution of broadcasting. Thank you.

Delyth Jewell as the committee Chair.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you, Llywydd. Broadcasting is a subject that has been at the forefront of the agenda of the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee. We as a committee have taken evidence from a host of stakeholders who strongly suggest that we need to strengthen the media landscape in Wales, although there is a great difference of opinion about how to do that, and I'll mention that in due course. But first, I'd first like to pay tribute to the important work undertaken in this area by the previous committee, the culture committee of the fifth Senedd, because the work that we are discussing today, certainly in terms of examining the case for establishing an expert panel to explore the creation of a shadow broadcasting and communications authority for Wales, the foundations of that work were laid by the previous committee.
This debate would not be happening today were it not for the work undertaken by that committee in the fifth Senedd. They gathered evidence on public service broadcasting and moved the debate forward, and prompted the Cardiff School of Journalism to commission research to fill the gaps where evidence did not exist. That research showed that there was a lack of coverage in the British press of devolved areas and, as a result, there was a democratic deficit. The people of Wales didn't always understand Welsh policies and this problem was highlighted by COVID. There were innumerable complications early in the pandemic caused by the stubbornness of some commentators, as they spoke about 'the Health Secretary', instead of acknowledging that there were different health Ministers for each nation. And this complexity led to problems that weren't just constitutional, as the previous committee had heard, but were public health issues. British commentators had to provide clarity then, for the first time ever, that health was a devolved area and that that needed to be acknowledged. Misinformation endangers more than democracy; it can also put people's lives at risk as well.
I will turn now to our committee, the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee of the sixth Senedd. There was a difference of opinion in the committee, obviously. In November last year, after the publication of Ofcom's report on the future of public service broadcasting, we as a committee reported on how the recommendations would affect Wales. We endorsed Ofcom's recommendations on the need for legislation that would strengthen PSBs, which are facing increasing competition from global streaming services, such as Netflix. We recommended that Wales needs a stronger voice when making decisions. We argued that DCMS and the public service broadcasting advisory panel should include Welsh representatives in their discussions about the challenges facing PSBs in the digital age. We argued that there was a need to think specifically about protecting Welsh-language programming, and content that reflects Wales in both languages.
It's clear that we need a change of some kind in the way that broadcasting decisions are made. There will be a difference of opinion on that, but the broadcasting landscape in Wales is complex; there are specific challenges and opportunities for broadcasters, and the needs of audiences in Wales are unique. This is an area in which our committee will certainly take an interest over the coming months and years. I am very pleased that I have also been able to pay tribute to the work of the previous committee. There will be different views in the Chamber about the purpose of this debate, but without doubt, the influence of that committee deserves praise. It shows how important committee work is and how influential it can be for the future of Wales. Thank you.

Alun Davies AC: I have to say that I was somewhat surprised to see this item on our order paper for this afternoon and the debate that's been taking place. I do agree with much of what the Minister said in opening the debate, but I always find debates on these matters somewhat unsatisfying and, ultimately, disappointing. Because what tends to happen—and we saw this from some of the Conservative speakers this afternoon—is people on both sides of the debate, either strongly in favour of devolution or strongly opposed to devolution, exhibiting the weak and feeble thinking that leads to unconvincing and inadequate policy. What we need to do is to understand what the problems are that we want to fix. There are serious issues here to be addressed, and I believe, Minister, that we should do so in the way that Welsh Labour tends to address these issues, which is to put the interests of the people of Wales first, second and third.
I agree very much with what the Minister said in her analysis of some of the issues facing us. The current systems we have of regulations and the structures and frameworks we have are simply not fit for purpose, and they're not delivering what we require as a nation. As somebody who was brought up in an English-speaking community, our culture, our national expression has no place in today's media landscape; it has no place at all. And for that reason, I believe that regulation has failed. The points that have been made by Members of Plaid Cymru in this debate are absolutely correct: there has been a failure to deliver accurate news on different broadcast outlets; there has been a failure to deliver the news about this place and about the governance of our country. That is a failure of regulation and it is a failure of Ofcom. Ofcom doesn't have the resources in Wales to deliver the sorts of regulation that we require, and simply to make excuses, as the Conservatives have done this afternoon, is to let down the people they seek to represent. It's simply not good enough to say that because we have some excellence in programme making, some excellence in production, some excellence in creative industries, therefore we need no further support at all, what we've got is enough and we should be pleased with it. That is not good enough. I want more for my country.
We do need accountability for some of these matters as well. I've disagreed, I'm afraid, as ever, with almost everybody in the Chamber on some of these issues. For me, I do not like Ministers making appointments. I remember a Conservative Minister being very, very clear when I was in Government that they wanted not the best person for the job—[Interruption.] You've only just come in, James, so keep your mouth shut. They didn't want the best person for the job; they wanted the Conservative appointee for the job, and that should not be happening in broadcasting. And for that reason, I believe that it is right and proper that broadcasting, as a subject, should be accountable to this Parliament and to other parliaments and not to Ministers and not to governments. It's too important to allow individual governments, whoever they may be, to take accountability for these matters. But we need to have far more accountability and far more action to address the disinformation and misinformation that exists today.
But we need to look to the future as well. My 11-year-old son doesn't watch the BBC, he doesn't watch S4C, he doesn't watch any of it; he watches YouTube, he watches Netflix. You tell me how an economic regulator in Wales is going to regulate Netflix. Let me tell you: it ain't going to happen. And if you do Wales down in that way, there'll be less regulation and not more regulation; there'll be less accountability and not more accountability. And let me say this, as well: Radio 2 will still be broadcasting if these matters are devolved. Boris Johnson, or somebody who will, no doubt, replace him in the next couple of months, will still be making inaccurate remarks about what happens where and who governs what part of policy. Yet there will be no form of regulation that will be able to tell that person, that office holder, that they need to be accountable for what they say. Because if we do not have a UK shared regulator that is able to do the work, we won't be able to say those things and we won't be able to have that level of regulation.
I'm glad the First Minister has joined us for this debate, because I think the real debate we need to have here isn't about whether or not we devolve broadcasting, but what is the purpose of the United Kingdom and what are the shared institutions and the shared values that we have to enable us all to see and feel a part of our national communities, wherever we happen to be in the United Kingdom. Surely, if the United Kingdom is to have a role in the future, it's to ensure that my 11-year-old can grow up seeing his English language identity safeguarded, portrayed on the screen, understood as part of our national community, and his Welsh language identity receiving exactly the same equality of esteem and place. If we're able to do that, the arguments that have dominated this debate for too long will simply fall away. We will have shared institutions with shared values and a shared vision of the future that we are all able, together, to deliver. Thank you.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you for the opportunity to say a few words.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I was fortunate enough to work in the broadcasting industry for a couple of decades before coming here. I declare an interest as a member of the National Union of Journalists still. I used to be employed by the BBC in Wales and a number of independent broadcasting companies.
Communication and broadcasting is how we talk to each other, about each other, learn about our history, excite together about our future. But in order to facilitate and encourage this kind of Welsh-focused public service broadcasting, there is a clear role for governments and parliaments to provide those platforms—from a distance, absolutely—but to make sure that those platforms exist. The key question for me here is: who do we want to have ultimate control when it comes to the landscape of broadcasting in Wales? Do we want the UK Government—and I can see the direction of travel there—or do we want something that we can have control over as a joint venture for our nation? The devolving of broadcasting and communication is crucial for that.
The direction of travel under the Conservative Government in the UK currently is very, very clear. We cannot leave it to market forces alone. That is what the Conservatives are pursuing. I think the privatisation of Channel 4 now speaks volumes about their attitudes towards the media. The freedom that Channel 4 has had has enabled it to develop really innovative programming and independent news that is appreciated by so many people. I do not want to jeopardise the future that Welsh broadcasting could have by allowing us to go down the road set by the UK Government currently to a point of no return.
We have to distinguish here between the kind of Welsh broadcasting and communications that we want to discuss and what devolution of broadcasting is all about and the broadcasting, television and film industry that some Members on the Conservative benches have chosen to focus on. Yes, we have a brilliant media sector in Wales, producing films and television programmes that are enjoyed the world over. We have world-leading directors, actors and presenters. That is something that we can nurture for the future, and it is something that the Welsh economy can benefit from for many years to come. But that is not the same as securing the kind of broadcasting that allows us to develop our national conversation.
We talk about S4C often, and it's a headline that I'm pleased is there. I'm pleased that, after so many years of cuts, S4C has received an increase in its funding. But let's focus on radio. What will happen to Radio Cymru if the licence fee is lost and the BBC becomes a wholly commercial venture that has to pay for itself in every element of its work? Will Radio Cymru pay for itself in those market terms? Possibly, probably not. Radio Cymru, since the mid 1970s, has been a cornerstone of life through the Welsh language. Radio Cymru 2, even with a smaller audience, is just as important to the future of Welsh language broadcasting. And whilst I have been excited, as so many of you have, listening to Nic Parry and Malcolm Allen commentating on the football, Dylan Griffiths and Iwan Roberts do it for me in exactly the same way, and I've probably listened to them on radio more than I have watched football on television.
But it's not just Welsh language television and radio that we're talking about. There's niche programming in the English language that we need to make sure is there for years to come. I remember the fight for a 6 o'clock news hour for Wales, a fight that eventually we found we had no real influence over. We need that kind of control over English language programming in Wales so that we can speak to each other and talk about our futures in both our national languages. And when Wales is independent, I am quite sure that there will be all sorts of shared institutions, and why not share the kind of regulation we need across these islands in broadcasting too, but let's not deny this opportunity to put these difficult issues on the table so that we can discuss the best way forward to protect Welsh communication and broadcasting for the future.

The Deputy Minister to reply to the debate. Dawn Bowden.

Dawn Bowden AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Can I thank all colleagues for their contributions this afternoon? I will try and respond to a number of the points made, but forgive me if I don't cover everything, because there were lots of very good points made, and people making the same points but in different ways.
Can I just start by thanking Tom Giffard for pointing out how the Labour Party is going to take things forward and telling me what the Labour Party's going to do and what it won't do? You seem to know more than I do, so you've got inside info on that, Tom. I don't know where that came from. But can I be absolutely clear? We have set up this expert panel not because we have already made our minds up; we have talked about the direction of travel, but we want this report from the expert panel to be evidence based, and there couldn't be anything clearer than that. In the terms of reference for the panel, we talk about the need for them to be transparent and accountable, for them to talk about the governance arrangements for broadcasting and media in Wales, to look at the funding implications and the ongoing sustainability. The finance and the ongoing sustainability was something that was mentioned by several Members, particularly on the Conservative benches. Gareth Davies mentioned it, as well as Samuel Kurtz.
Heledd Fychan talked about media deficiencies causing gaps in information. She's absolutely right, of course, that that is one of the key areas that we do need to address. Several Members did comment on how the COVID pandemic highlighted that information deficit that we saw, particularly in the delivery of news and public health information. Several Members made the point that that was not just information deficit, it was actually, potentially, very dangerous when we were having people being presented with information that was not relevant to the public health situation here in Wales. Cefin Campbell made a very similar point about that, again about the public health message being delivered.
Jack Sargeant was quite right when he talked about Wales as being a passionate and proud nation. He referenced pêl-droed—and who wouldn't be proud and passionate about football at this moment in time—building on the success of both the men's and women's teams at the moment, and S4C being central to that and us wanting to maintain that. We have a memorandum of understanding with S4C, which is building on the need for us to develop our portrayal of Welsh life, all the cultural aspects of our life and, of course, Welsh sport. And to take up your challenge particularly, Jack, in terms of football being free to view going forward, particularly the national team, I think that is something that you and I are on the same page on, and that is something very much that I think the expert panel will need to be looking at in terms of what regulation we would have in Wales that would allow such important sporting events to be free and available for anybody to watch.

Gareth Davies AS: Will you take an intervention?

Dawn Bowden AC: Indeed.

Gareth Davies AS: Currently the Welsh football games are only available to Welsh language channels that are free to air, such as S4C, and in the English language it's on Sky Sports, which is obviously pay per view. So, do you know how much it would cost, then, to bring English language Welsh football into the public sector, the television sector?

Dawn Bowden AC: No, I don't know how much that would cost, Gareth, but all of the financial implications for any of these proposals as we move forward would have to be looked at, and would be part of the case that we develop to either pursue the devolution of broadcasting or not. Because I think we need to be very clear about this—the expert panel is being put in place to deliver a case for the devolution of broadcasting if the evidence supports it. So, we need to be very clear about what we are seeking to do.
But Sam Kurtz was right to highlight—and I think Rhun ap Iorwerth did as well—the success of our screen and film industry. But I think it's important to remember as well that that has been heavily supported. You were talking, Sam, as though this was something that was just happening out there in the private sector, delivering all these fantastic productions, and, yes, of course that is what is happening, but let's not forget that major productions like The Pembrokeshire Murders and The Pact and lots of other productions on S4C—at least eight productions on S4C—were heavily supported by Creative Wales and Welsh Government. And that wouldn't stop in a new regulatory framework.
Carolyn Thomas talked about the concerns around selling off S4C and the threat that the BBC licence fee going would cause right the way across our public sector broadcasting. I think Rhun ap Iorwerth made a very similar point. So, I have written to Nadine Dorries, the Secretary of State for DCMS, on that point, but surprise, surprise, I've not actually had a reply from her at the moment.
Delyth Jewell referenced, as did Cefin Campbell, the work of the—[Interruption.]

Are you taking an intervention?

Dawn Bowden AC: Sorry, I beg your pardon. Sorry, Tom. Yes.

Tom Giffard AS: Sorry, I just wanted to make clear, in my contribution Alun Davies seemed to suggest that the devolution of broadcasting would be a vehicle to reverse the privatisation of Channel 4 and keep Channel 4 in public ownership in Wales. I just wanted to clarify whether that was your position as well.

Dawn Bowden AC: What I don't want to do, Tom—. That would be my aspiration, because I do not believe that the privatisation of Channel 4 or the abolition of the licence fee for the BBC is the right way for us to proceed. But let me be absolutely clear, I am not going to set out here and now what the findings of the expert panel will be because that would not be appropriate. That is what the expert panel are being put in place to do. Now, Alun Davies may well have his own views and his own opinions on that. He's perfectly entitled to have them. He's never been backward in coming forward. [Laughter.]

Alun Davies AC: It was Carolyn Thomas and not Alun Davies.

Dawn Bowden AC: But just to finally say, on those points, Delyth Jewell and Cefin Campbell also both referenced the work of the previous culture committees in this area, and I hope very much that the work of the previous culture committee will be work and evidence that the expert panel can reference and can use as part of their work in taking all of this forward, as well.
So, in wrapping up, Llywydd, what I would say is that I think, from what I've heard this afternoon and this evening, the Tories, to me, I'm sorry, colleagues, really don't seem to recognise or acknowledge that Wales is a nation in its own right, and that we have a unique culture and language, a bilingual ethos, a nature and a history that is distinct within the UK, and there are differences in the media landscape in Wales, and a reliance on broadcasting services such as news, and that makes it even more essential that our needs are understood so that our citizens can access accurate, impartial services and content relevant to Wales in the language of their choice.
The work of the panel comes at a critical time. Changing habits, content consumption, concerns with the supply and accuracy of media provision and funding cuts have only strengthened the need to consider the regulatory framework in an increasingly digital and global environment. And many of these changes have been accelerated by the global pandemic. So, I look forward to receiving the views of the panel to support our ongoing work to help strengthen broadcasting in Wales and the development of plans for an effective and fit-for-purpose regulatory framework for Wales. Diolch yn fawr.

The proposal is to agree amendment 1. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is objection to that proposal to agree amendment 1. We will therefore defer voting until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

We'll now take a short break to make technical preparations for those votes.

Plenary was suspended at 18:06.

The Senedd reconvened at 18:11, with the Llywydd in the Chair.

10. Voting Time

We move now to voting time, and the first vote this afternoon is on amendment 1 in the debate on broadcasting. And I call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 16, no abstentions, 38 against, and therefore the amendment is not agreed.

Item 9. Debate: Broadcasting. Amendment 1, tabled in the name of Darren Millar: For: 16, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

I now call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 38, no abstentions, 16 against, and therefore the motion is agreed.

Item 9. Debate: Broadcasting. Motion: For: 38, Against: 16, Abstain: 0
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

And that brings today's proceedings to a close.

The meeting ended at 18:12.

QNR

Questions to the First Minister

Hefin David: Will the First Minister make a statement on the pressures currently facing the Welsh Ambulance Service?

Mark Drakeford: The Welsh ambulance service remains under ongoing pressure due to a range of local and national factors. This year, the Welsh Ambulance Services NHS Trust will receive almost £5 million additional funding to increase emergency ambulance capacity and improve response times for the most seriously ill people in our communities.

Luke Fletcher: Will the First Minister provide an update on the learner transport review?

Mark Drakeford: We published the Learner Travel (Wales) Measure 2008 Review on 31 March 2022. Officials are putting in place a comprehensive engagement programme that will ensure that all our stakeholders have the opportunity to contribute to the subsequent wider Learner Travel (Wales) review.

Mabon ap Gwynfor: Will the First Minister provide an update on the Government's land procurement policy?

Mark Drakeford: Our policy, 'Guidance for the Acquisition of Property Assets by Welsh Government', was published in July 2020. It remains in place.

Altaf Hussain: What is the Welsh Government's plan to level up the Welsh economy?

Mark Drakeford: The Welsh Government operates a social partnership approach, bringing people together to promote fair work and better jobs.